Frost-Free Sillcock freeze damage

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LLigetfa

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When I built my home in '98, I installed a half dozen sillcocks all around the house. Some of them were for hot and cold soft water, some were iron filtered hard water and one was unfiltered. I am fully aware that the hoses need to be removed so the sillcocks can drain. I am also aware that they need to be pitched to drain.

The problem is with the design and I would love to have a Dutch Uncle talk with the mechanical engineer that designed the model I have. The internal "valve stem" is a hollow 1/4" brass tube that is crimped onto the end pieces and this tube has a propensity to fill up with water. With the small 1/4" ID of the tube and the small gaps around the crimped ends, capillary action keeps the tube from draining. The freezing then splits the tube lengthwise and in so doing the crimped ends not longer hold.

My problem for years was not being able to find the same make and model of sillcock or repair kit locally. The place I bought them at went bankrupt long ago and I've not been able to find new units before now. A few years ago I replaced two of the units that I could still get easy access to on the inside so I had an old unit I could take with me on my travels to try to match up a replacement. Back then I tried unscrewing one from the outside and it twisted the pipe inside the wall. The only safe way IMHO is to get two wrenches onto the flats of the fittings on the inside or to cut back the copper pipe and sweat in a new stub.

Anyway... cutting to the chase... I finally found another source for the sillcocks 360 km away and I snapped up the only two they had. I modified them by soldering the crimped ends to the end pieces so that they should never suffer the same fate. Hopefully on a future trip I will find more of them in stock and will do likewise.

I did consider just sourcing the 1/4 ID tubing and cutting it to length and I may still do that but some of the old units are also starting to leak around the stem/packing nut. I probably could replace the O-ring seal but then the stem might also be pitted. Anyway, now that I have a couple of spares, I may keep it in mind as plan B. Plan C is to buy the longer version of sillcock and cut the innards down to size.
 
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Sounds like a poor design for a frost-free sillcock.

Are you saying the inside valve stem hoards water, even if it is pitched to drain outside?

Does every manufacturer has this problem, or just the ones you picked up? The ones in Canada usually come from aqua-dynamics.

You seem to know how to fix the manufacturing flaw. Might be better to mail order new ones and do your thing.
 

Quarterball

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When I built my home in '98, I installed a half dozen sillcocks all around the house. Some of them were for hot and cold soft water, some were iron filtered hard water and one was unfiltered. I am fully aware that the hoses need to be removed so the sillcocks can drain. I am also aware that they need to be pitched to drain.

The problem is with the design and I would love to have a Dutch Uncle talk with the mechanical engineer that designed the model I have. The internal "valve stem" is a hollow 1/4" brass tube that is crimped onto the end pieces and this tube has a propensity to fill up with water. With the small 1/4" ID of the tube and the small gaps around the crimped ends, capillary action keeps the tube from draining. The freezing then splits the tube lengthwise and in so doing the crimped ends not longer hold.

My problem for years was not being able to find the same make and model of sillcock or repair kit locally. The place I bought them at went bankrupt long ago and I've not been able to find new units before now. A few years ago I replaced two of the units that I could still get easy access to on the inside so I had an old unit I could take with me on my travels to try to match up a replacement. Back then I tried unscrewing one from the outside and it twisted the pipe inside the wall. The only safe way IMHO is to get two wrenches onto the flats of the fittings on the inside or to cut back the copper pipe and sweat in a new stub.

Anyway... cutting to the chase... I finally found another source for the sillcocks 360 km away and I snapped up the only two they had. I modified them by soldering the crimped ends to the end pieces so that they should never suffer the same fate. Hopefully on a future trip I will find more of them in stock and will do likewise.

I did consider just sourcing the 1/4 ID tubing and cutting it to length and I may still do that but some of the old units are also starting to leak around the stem/packing nut. I probably could replace the O-ring seal but then the stem might also be pitted. Anyway, now that I have a couple of spares, I may keep it in mind as plan B. Plan C is to buy the longer version of sillcock and cut the innards down to size.

Several manufacturers use a hollow stem in conjunction with a spring loaded seat washer to serve as back flow prevention. If there is a path from the waterway to the internal section of the stem, there is the possibility for freeze damage.

Our ball valve frostproof sillcock do not have a path from the waterway to the internal section of the stem. Excellent images can be seen at:
https://www.completeplumbingsource....iphon-frost-proof-wall-hydrant-with-3-4-mpt-x
 
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LLigetfa

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Sounds like a poor design for a frost-free sillcock.

Are you saying the inside valve stem hoards water, even if it is pitched to drain outside?
That seems to be the case. Maybe I did not pitch it quite enough or maybe the mineral deposits increase the capillary action?

I might post a few pics later to show how they are split and how much mineral encrustation they have. I have some disgustingly hard water.
 

LLigetfa

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Our ball valve frostproof sillcock do not have a path from the waterway to the internal section of the stem.
Good to know. I've been tempted to switch some of them out to quarter turn but after twisting one of the old sillcocks trying to remove it, I am a little gun shy. Getting to the fittings on the inside is tight between the floor joists and the underside of the subfloor. I ran all my electrical just beneath them so I need to pull the wires down to get access.

Some of the sillcocks get hooked up to soaker hose timers just once a season so it's not like I need to open and close them that often.
 

Jadnashua

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Maybe there's a good reason why that company went out of business - their design was lousy! FWIW, Woodford makes a couple of different models that will drain even if you do leave a hose attached.
 

LLigetfa

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Maybe there's a good reason why that company went out of business - their design was lousy!
I don't think the manufacturer went out of business. It was the local builder supply place where I bought them that went bankrupt.

BTW, the original units have BK in the casting and the innards seem to match google searches for BK Mueller 888-187 but nothing on that in Canada. After finding it at Home Depot under the Aqua-Dynamics name, I googled their part number 1390-100, I found they are imported by John L Schultz but the innards are not in their catalog.
 

LLigetfa

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Ja, they turned up on my google search. As I said, not available in Canada. By the time I convert CDN$ to US$ and pay shipping, the complete Aqua-Dynamics unit as Home Depot works out to be cheaper.
 

Quarterball

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If you are considering the Aqua-Dynamics 1/4-turn unit, please keep in mind it uses a ceramic disc cartridge to control the flow of water. Since ceramic is an excellent insulator of heat, the ceramic disc components have very different thermal expansion/contraction characteristics compared to the rest of the brass/copper components in the sillcock.
 

LLigetfa

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I found they are imported by John L Schultz but the innards are not in their catalog.
Dredging up an old thread...
Had another sill-cock failure this Spring and so used up my last spare. Decided to email John L. Schultz to inquire about getting just the innards and they were nice enough to send them to me. I just need to sweat the ends closed on them like I did the others and should be set for life now.

Still contemplating replacing some frequently used ones with quarter-turn but have to put some thought into the pair of hot and cold filtered soft water bibs where I mix them to get the right temperature. Maybe a quarter turn would be difficult to get the right mix? A half turn or one full turn might give finer control but it's hard to know how linear the range is. I have a single handle faucet on my mudroom utility sink in that drives me nuts... all the mixing range is in the middle of the stroke so the difference between cold and scalding is less than 1/2 inch of lever travel.

Speaking of utility sinks, I am considering putting one outside where I have my hot and cold sill-cocks now. Would love to find one of those sinks with the high backs at a good price. Bonus points if it is big enough to bathe our GSD.
 

LLigetfa

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Dredging up an old thread...
Had another sill-cock failure this Spring...
I have one sill-cock that is longer than the others so the spares I have on hand won't fit it. Fortunately, I kept the sill-cock that I twisted trying to turn it from the outside and it happened to be the longer one so I was able reuse the innards. I soldered the ends of the replacement stem closed to keep water out of it but I ran into another failure point with the helical screw that moves the stem open/closed.

Water got trapped inside the threaded female part, froze and busted out the side. I don't know how it happened that water got trapped inside it and what I can do different to prevent it in the future. What I do to Winterize it is shut off an inside ball valve that feeds several sill-cocks and connect my air compressor to blow out the water.
 
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