Flushometer Brands

[Chris_G]

It's as if I stumbled onto a bulletin board for "G scale" model train buffs and made the social blunder of mentioning that I own "HO scale" trains.

I've asked for advice on Flushometers. All I've gotten is a smack-down by "tank toilet loyalist".

Several have chimed in with almost reverential defenses of tank toilets vs flushometers. Sorry, I'm not buying a tank toilet, I'm simply not. If you cannot deal with that, don't bother to post. If you have something to contribute about flushometers on the market, I'm eager to hear from you.

The space issue is real. Size of a flushometer- a few inches wide, by about 12" to 18" tall... even smaller (much smaller) with the German designer model by Schell. Tank toilet- a few cubic feet. It is precious VOLUME in my room, not square feet on my floor, as I have reiterated again and again. Cass seems to get it. If you want another analogy, think about packing a suitcase. Now, think about packing a toilet-tank in your suitcase, and think about packing a flushometer in your suitcase... literally. The tank probably won't even fit in your suitcase, where, with the flushometer, well you'd have to leave out a couple of T-Shirts, and a roll of socks. Get it? A tank takes up space. Also, esthetically speaking, I happen to prefer the look of a piece of chrome hardware over a big porcelain box.

My inquiry is simple- Are there hardware manufactures that produce flushometer hardware with as much design consideration as other bathroom hardware? I've found a few myself, and posted them. I would have thought that a group of professional plumbers would have known of more. It was a simple question.

Either you have something to contribute, ie.: I know a product made by a Swiss company called Geberit, who are distributed by Chicago Faucets. They have a model that is simpler in design that most of the Sloan and Zurn models on the US market. Their products work with American plumbing. Maybe you should check them out.

Something like that is a credible reply. Posting back that you have measured a bunch of toilets and decided that my desire to save space isn't an adequate reason to implement a flushometer, and therefore you still prefer tank toilets, contributes nothing.

 

[Chris_G]

If you do not have piping for a flushometer, converting to one is not simply a case of increasing the pipe connection to it...

As to existing plumbing, I'm doing a gut renovation- so it doesn't matter.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

It's all good information you are bringing out.

In Manhatten, there are many toilets without tanks.
Having some nice looking valves would be nice.

 

[Chris_G]

Thank you. All I really want is a point in the direction of a flushometer that has design consideration, like anyone would expect out of a faucet set, or other bathroom hardware. I know somebody already makes them. I've seen them in nice hotels and the bathrooms in up-scale restaurants. Obviously there are some that work with American plumbing hardware- I seem to recall the ones I've used have worked just fine, but I don't know who manufactures them.

I've used Google to search in specific countries by ending the search string with site: and putting the country specific suffix, .it to search only in Italy, .de to search only in Germany, etc. I begin the string with search terms like "flush valve" and flushometer, and began adding wc when I found that many label the toilet hardware with the abbreviation for "Water Closet". Are there any other commonly used words for this type of hardware?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[dc_homeplumber]

It's as if I stumbled onto a bulletin board for "G scale" model train buffs and made the social blunder of mentioning that I own "HO scale" trains.

I've asked for advice on Flushometers. All I've gotten is a smack-down by "tank toilet loyalist".

Several have chimed in with almost reverential defenses of tank toilets vs flushometers. Sorry, I'm not buying a tank toilet, I'm simply not. If you cannot deal with that, don't bother to post. If you have something to contribute about flushometers on the market, I'm eager to hear from you.

The space issue is real. Size of a flushometer- a few inches wide, by about 12" to 18" tall... even smaller (much smaller) with the German designer model by Schell. Tank toilet- a few cubic feet. It is precious VOLUME in my room, not square feet on my floor, as I have reiterated again and again. Cass seems to get it. If you want another analogy, think about packing a suitcase. Now, think about packing a toilet-tank in your suitcase, and think about packing a flushometer in your suitcase... literally. The tank probably won't even fit in your suitcase, where, with the flushometer, well you'd have to leave out a couple of T-Shirts, and a roll of socks. Get it? A tank takes up space. Also, esthetically speaking, I happen to prefer the look of a piece of chrome hardware over a big porcelain box.

My inquiry is simple- Are there hardware manufactures that produce flushometer hardware with as much design consideration as other bathroom hardware? I've found a few myself, and posted them. I would have thought that a group of professional plumbers would have known of more. It was a simple question.

Either you have something to contribute, ie.: I know a product made by a Swiss company called Geberit, who are distributed by Chicago Faucets. They have a model that is simpler in design that most of the Sloan and Zurn models on the US market. Their products work with American plumbing. Maybe you should check them out.

Something like that is a credible reply. Posting back that you have measured a bunch of toilets and decided that my desire to save space isn't an adequate reason to implement a flushometer, and therefore you still prefer tank toilets, contributes nothing.

You will be much more likely to receive helpful contributions on this site if you cut your condescending narrative. It's simply lovely that you have the money to pay a fortune for what is, to the non-Manhattan dweller, a relatively small space and then, to be able to gut it and design it exactly as you wish. Bravo! The point you are missing is, that unless a commercial-type flush valve toilet is already in your space, you will be up against much more than retrofitting metric and/or other foreign materials. If the fresh water supply line is not of a large enough diameter, the commercial-type flush valve will not work properly. Since you are in Manhattan, I am going to assume that your condo is not ground level. Therefore, running the proper diameter pipe from the source of supply, into the building and through the walls and floors of other units to accommodate your need for a flush-o-meter might strain even your budget. For someone who doesn't want to sacrifice $1,500 worth of space, it could get quite expensive. As noted before, there are tankless toilets available that use "standard" plumbing. Two that come to mind are the Kohler Purist Hatbox and the Toto Neorest, although they have elongated seating areas and I don't have the time nor patience now to figure out what that works out to in square feet or dollars or euros. Both are also quite pricey. The Neorest even has a built-in bidet, a sensor that detects your approach and automatically raises the seat and a handy remote control.

I wish you the best in finding exactly what you want. A commercial plumbing supplier that deals primarily in high-end will probably be your best source.

 

[JK60]

You will be much more likely to receive helpful contributions on this site if you cut your condescending narrative.

dc_homeplumber - Bravo!!! You've expressed what I was thinking while reading this thread. As a matter of fact I am shocked that people here are still willing to contribute their time and expertise to this issue while getting bad attitude and criticism in return.

 

[Chris_G]

I hope that you will accept my apologies for my bad behavior. Not of your concern and probably too much information, but several things disrupting my life directly related to this renovation, but nothing to do with my flushometer, have turned my life upside down and that all came to a head over the last several days. I think the pursuit of the perfect flushometer somehow became the preposterous outlet for my angst. I felt like everyone here was trying to argue with me about tank toilets over flushometers and I escalated with snarky responses. After re-reading this thread, I realize I was the one being an ass.

I was genuinely enthusiastic when I found this forum. My expectation was that I would get a few replies with several great manufactures and models, by people who really knew this market, and instead, I just found that plumbers prefer using tanks. That's my problem, not yours.

 

[dc_homeplumber]

I think it's a shame that (for some of us anyway) the path to owning our ideal home has to be so treacherous. I don't know your particular situation Chris, but I had a house built in 1994 and everything from financing approval to resolution of the final punchlist items was a NIGHTMARE. My contractor argued just about every possible point with me -- including the toilets. He provided round white Mansfields; I wanted elongated American Standards in grey and forest green. I wanted ceramic on the bathroom floors; he insisted vinyl was fine. I wanted the range hood vented to the outside; he said it was an unnecessary expense. He made me feel crazy for requesting things that I was willing to pay for.

In hindsight, I would have been better served to have accepted the cheap Mansfields. 1.6 gallon toilets were new that year and mine absolutely sucked (and not in a good way). If I still owned that house, I'm sure I would have by now replaced those original toilets and, because of the color, been out a fortune again. Anyway....

I don't think it's so much the plumbers' preference for tank toilets. I believe it was assumed by your post that your prerequisite rough plumbing might not be adequate to support what you want to do and the options that would work within your limitations to get you as close as possible to the desired end result (i.e., functional use of limited space) were being pointed out.

Again, I hope everything works out to your liking. As "crappy" as they were, my grey and green American Standards on a tile floor were what I wanted and I would have NEVER been happy with white Mansfields on vinyl.

 

[hj]

flushometer

As to existing plumbing, I'm doing a gut renovation- so it doesn't matter.

It does matter because if you do not have the proper water supply to the toilet area, or into the building, you can repipe to your heart's content and the flushometer will still not work.

 

[Chris_G]

Very well. There are many conditions that must be met. I'm not a plumber, and my contractor will ultimately deal with the technical issues. It is true that our apartment currently has a tank, however that was installed as part of work done as a half arse renovation when the place was put on the market before we bought. I've been in other units in this building that do indeed have flushometers, which, in any case, is the norm, not the exception, in Manhattan apartments.

Understanding that you have expertise, and only wish to offer sound advice- going forward, can we operate on the assumption that my apartment and plumbing can indeed support a flushometer?

If we make that assumption, then the next step would be... (?)

If the next step would be following dc_homeplumber's advice:

A commercial plumbing supplier that deals primarily in high-end will probably be your best source.

So, does anyone have a high-end commercial plumber that they recommend? I've trolled about on as many plumbing sites as I can find, but I'm just not finding what I'm looking for.

I'll show you what I have found:

As mentioned before, there is the gorgeous Schell GmbH + Co. KG: Schellomat Edition WC flush valve. I'm apprehensive of the potential sticker shock, as I still haven't been able to communicate with anyone that can quote me a price. They have no distribution in the States, which means I would have to order it from overseas (with a weak American Dollar exchange rate), and pay to have it shipped. The additional unexplained fact that my wife is opposed to the push button design (I'm going to give some quick, but unnecessary back-story here: We had a flushometer in our last apartment {non-lowflow, unlimiting, and no longer produced model} and I, like many men, have the habit of flushing with my foot- i.e.: stepping on the low lever to flush. She frequently got on my case about this behavior. With a pushbutton, I pretty well be forced to flush with the button. I genuinely thought she'd love the button design, but it got the adamant 'thumbs down'). Hence, the Schell is no longer being considered, so I post this here only for educational purposes, as it were:

Will this flush valve work with a Toto CT705L tankless toilet?

(read with German accent)
I have no idea what for an toilet the TOTO CT705L is but it is not necessary. The only things that are of interest are:

You must have a pressure of minimum 1,0 bar, better will be 1,3 bar.
Your pipes must have a diameter of 1 ".
You have to regulate the flow to 1,2 l/s.

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If I cannot find what exactly I'm looking for then the Sloan GEM is the leading candidate.

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I also found this work of art, made by a company in India called Jaquar & Company. Unfortunately, they don't even have a website and the importer/exporter that works with them only takes orders is the thousands, so I don't think I'll be buying one.




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A well engineered apparatus is a beautiful thing, even when it's a toilet flush valve.

-

 

[Jadnashua]

Do you have room in the wall for an automatic valve or considered one that attaches to the toilet directly? Like in some airports, and commercial buildings it senses the heat of a person sitting on the thing, then flushes when they get up. They usually have a manual flush, too. Some of these are quite sleek. Toto makes some at www.totousa.com and others. Those we have at work (I'm on travel right now so I can't look at the brand) are quite small and clean looking. Those have a small button on the side to manually flush it, if so desired.

 

[SteveW]

1. Note that dc_homeplumber said to seek out a "commercial plumbing supplier," not a plumber. Surely Manhattan must have a number of such places -- usually in the yellow pages under "plumbing fixtures, parts & supplies" -- both retail and wholesale. The wholesale ones may be a good bet; they may or may not sell directly to you, but at least they can tell you over the phone what lines they carry.

2. Go back to hj's post -- 2nd from the very beginning of this thread -- where he recommended Sloan/Zurn flushometers for servicability. I'm no expert on flushometers, but from everything I've read on this site about folks who bought expensive European faucets, they tend to regret it when looking for parts.

Sloan makes chrome, satin-finish, brass, and gold-plated flushometers...

 

[dc_homeplumber]

An upscale interior designer might also be a good source to find suppliers for something other than the typical American commercial-type flush valve.

Don't get huffy, Chris, but I have to throw this out there as yet another alternative. You might even like it since you will gain even more space. Have you considered any of the toilet models where the "tank" is totally concealed inside the wall?

 

[Jimbo]

You have not offended anyone. But to almost all of us here on this forum, NYC is not actually on the same planet! What I mean is, it is a big city, and completely foreign to us. High rise buildings are a whole different animal in many ways, including plumbing. Many of us have never been above the 3rd floor!


Anyway, for the rest of suburban America, the realities of the construction business are that no one would pay what the kind of devices you are looking at would cost. If you hang around this forum, you will find many many homeowners posting complaining about having to spend $300 for a new toilet. They are looking for something under $150. My guess is that just that flushometer you are looking at would run much more than $300.

SO, we just don't have any experience in the area that you are looking for.

 

[Breplum]

Here in California, we have high-end plumbing showrooms, you might check out same in NYC. That way you might end up with something which will be code approved as well - if that matters.

Sadly, my experience with European-only products is that without repair parts and local customer support, the end user is in a very tough situation...I have no customers who ended up happy after the costs of metric adaptation and lack parts were understood.

If you haven't already, do check out the Toto Neorest toilets, they solve the volume issue you speak of.

No-one can argue that the European's don't have some incredibly advanced designs; totally different world of products.

 

[Chris_G]

In the end, I went with the Toto flushometer, to accompany the Toto toilet. I had hoped for something with a more angular appearance (it is a little bulbous on top), but I know this will be compatible with the Toto bowl.

FYI- We're not in a highrise. It's a turn of the century, former tenament building, converted to owner-occupied co-op (with floor through conversion).

When the place is done I'll try to remember to post some photos.

Also, for the record, I'm not some rich guy. My wife and I have done well trading up. She had a studio. When we married, we traded up to a one bedroom, and now we're planning for a child, and recently traded up to this two bedroom. As with our previous apartment, we bought a fixer-upper in an up-n-coming neigborhood to buy cheep for sq. footage, and then renovate. About half or more of the last reno was a DIY job. This time we bought a real bombed out dump with lots of exposed brick. We're in the process of gutting the place, this time leaving all the work to professionals. Before we purchased it, it could have been a crack den, and the fresh coat of flat super-white couldn't hide it. Though I don't work in architecture, and I'm not licensed, it was my educational background, so this home has really been my passion. Our hope, should we be successful enough one day to pull it off, is that I will design a freestanding weekend house in the country for us. There is also another tangential motive- I'd like to take a stab at drumming up some interior design work on the side, and if so, this apartment will be my primary portfolio piece.

Thank you to everyone who provided feedback.

 

[SteveW]

Best of luck to you, Chris! Sounds like a neat project. We'll look forward to those photos. FWIW sounds to me like you've made a great choice with the Toto unit -- even if you feel you've compromised a bit on the design end, you'll more than make up for it with easy of compatibility, future repairs, and reliability. I have a feeling it'll grow on you.

Good luck, too, on your most important project, planning your family!