Fleck 9100 SE issues - dual tank

[JoeHomeOwner]

I have a Fleck 9100 SE timer on a dual tank system. We were having hard water sometimes off and on for a while. Then our brine tank had 'deep water'. Info from this forum got me looking at the valves. They were a mess with rust, calcium and wear. I cleaned them up, applied some silicone grease and put it back together. The brine issue went away the gears didnt groan so loud and the water quality was better. Because of the wear, I replaced the valves using a "Fleck 9000, 9100 Rebuild Kit". The softner seemed to be working well for a few days when we started getting hard water again. When I looked at the display, it is now switching between the time and gallons remainig. It used to show; the time, gallons remaining, -- --, then the unit number (see attached image of the manual I found online.)

Is there a way to 'reset' the timer? Thx

 

[Bannerman]

Do you know the softening capacity for each tank? If not provide the dimensions for the two media tanks (ie: 9" diameter X 48", 10" X 54", 12" X 52" etc).

What is the hardness amount in your raw water? An appropriate test method is a Hach 5-B total hardness test kit.

Municipal water supply or a private well? If a private well, how much iron and/or manganese is in the raw water?

Post the settings that are currently programmed in the control valve. It is possible the control valve is not programmed correctly for the current water conditions.

It is also likely that 100% of the resin's capacity had been depleted while the controller was not operating correctly so additional regeneration cycles utilizing additional salt may now be required.

As you said you used silicone grease, please detail the specific brand and type of grease.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

From https://www.apswater.com/images/fleck_manuals/40608 (RevA) Insert.pdf

Resetting Permanent Programming Memory Push and hold the Set Up and Set Down buttons for 25 seconds or until the Time Of Day display resets to 12:00 P.M. All option settings reset to default values. Control programming must be reset as necessary.

However I would not do that, at least initially. Instead step through the existing settings to see what you have now. Check that the Valve Type =2 for 9000SE. Resetting the unit would probably lose that.

 

[JoeHomeOwner]

@Bannerman
I attached a photo of the the tank label, my measurements are 10" diameter and 45" tall. Private well. As for water info:
#OCC=8
HARDNESS gpg=24
IRON ppm=0.5
TDS ppm=480
PH ppm=7.2

The settings currently available by holding the ˆˇ buttons for 5 seconds has 3 settings:
gallons=650
time=12:00,
AOFF (could be set to A--1through A-99)

When I manually regen we have soft water again.

Danco 88693 SILICONE GREASE

Also (if helpful) I looked at the label next to the brine lines (attached pic) and it says:
.50 GPM
1.5 LB
SALT/MIN.

@Reach4
Nice doc! I set the time to 12:01 and these are the settings:

Display Format: U--1
Regeneration Type: 7--3
Treated Water Capacity: 650
Regeneration Time: 12:01
Regeneration Day Override: AOFF
Regeneration Cycle Step #1: 1-10
Regeneration Cycle Step #2: 2-60
Regeneration Cycle Step #3: 3-10
Regeneration Cycle Step #4: 4-12
Regeneration Cycle Step #5: SOFF
Flow Meter Size: F133
Valve Type: o--1
Line Frequency: LF60

 

[Reach4]

Valve Type: o--1

I think that should be 2 for the 9000 dual tank unit. I did not check the rest of the settings in detail.

 

[JoeHomeOwner]

I changed it to o--2. Another value now displays (o-U2) before the LF60.

Now we have a new display different pattern...

In Service, the display now blinks from:
Time
-U2- (which matches the arrow indicator near the gears)
gallons remaining

The settings currently available by holding the ˆˇ buttons for 5 seconds has 3 settings: (time @ 12:09)
gallons=650
time=1:00(I changed it. Having it at 12:01 when i set the time to 12:01 bothered me, even though it shouldn't matter.)
AOFF

Thanks for the help so far. I still seems strange the old/documented pattern isn't showing. :-/

 

[Reach4]

I changed it to o--2. Another value now displays (o-U2) before the LF60.

The new one I think indicates which tank is in use. That reading should alternate between regenerations.

 

[Bannerman]

I anticipate each of your 10" X 44" tanks should contain 1.25 ft3 resin. As such, each tank should have a total hardness removal capacity of 40,000 grains, but to realize greater hardness reduction efficiency, regeneration should be performed when no more than 30,000 grains has been depleted.

0.5 ppm Iron X 5 = 2.5 grains per gallon equivalent hardness + 24 gpg actual hardness = 26.5 gpg X 1.2 hardness compensation factor = 32 gpg (31.8 rounded up) compensated hardness.

30,000 grains / 32 gpg = 937.5 gallons capacity per tank - enter as Treated Water Capacity

To regenerate 30,000 grains in 1.25 ft3 resin per tank will require 10 lbs salt each cycle. To dissolve 10 lbs salt will require 3.333 gallons of water to enter the brine tank. With a 0.5 GPM BLFC flow restrictor, the Brine Fill setting (Step #4 below) will need to be 7-minutes (3.333 / 0.5 GPM = 6.667 rounded up).

Recommended settings:
Display Format: U--1 = Correct setting for US Gallons and 12-hr format
Regeneration Type: 7--3 = should be reset to 7--2 for Twin Tank softener to allow immediate regeneration when each tank's capacity has been depleted
Treated Water Capacity: 650 = with U--1 setting, the unit is currently programmed to regenerate when the softener has softened 650 gallons per tank. Enter the appropriate gallons capacity as calculated above
Regeneration Time: 12:01 = time setting not critical as the Regen Day Override is set to OFF since 7--2 above will cause immediate regeneration when each tank's capacity has become depleted
Regeneration Day Override: AOFF = correct setting for immediate regeneration for a twin tank softener
Regeneration Cycle Step #1: 1-10 = Although listed as Optional, I anticipate this sets the Backwash duration to 10-minutes.
Regeneration Cycle Step #2: 2-60 = Anticipated to be 60-minute Brine Draw/Slow Rinse setting
Regeneration Cycle Step #3: 3-10 = Anticipated to be 10-minutes duration for Rapid Rinse - may be reduced to 5-minutes
Regeneration Cycle Step #4: 4-12 = Anticipated to be currently set for 12-minutes Brine Fill - reset to appropriate setting calculated above
Regeneration Cycle Step #5: SOFF = correct setting to signify end of regeneration cycle
Flow Meter Size: F133 = correct setting for twin tank 3/4" Turbine flow meter and US Gallons format
Valve Type: o--1 = as previously stated, should be programmed as o--2 for twin tank softener
Line Frequency: LF60 = Power line frequency - LF60 appropriate for 60 HZ North America Alternating Current

 

[JoeHomeOwner]

Bannerman,

My interpretations is:

1) Regeneration Type: 7--3 I'll change it to 7--2 "Meter Immediate"

2) Treated Water Capacity: 650 Should be 937 iirc it used to be 835ish. Having it at at 650 would be regenerating more often than needed. I started adding Iron Out with each bag of Mortons Solr Salt since I cleaned the valves. There was a good bit of iron build up. see pic. Would more frequent regenerations for a while help 'clean' out the resin, or just be wasting salt?

3) Regeneration Cycle Step #1: 1-10 looking at the physical labels near the gears the first stage is indeed backwash. see pic. I will leave alone.

4) Regeneration Cycle Step #3: 3-10 I will reduce to 3--5

5) Regeneration Cycle Step #4: 4-12 I will reduce to 3--7

6) Valve Type: I confirm it is now set to o--2

Is that accurate?

 

[Bannerman]

What is the age of the unit? Resin granules become worn and fractured over time so small, lightweight peices will be flushed away to drain. While a loss of capacity is usually minor, it needs to be anticipated which is part of the reason 100% of the original total capacity is not programmed for use. Depending in the age of the resin, perhaps there is significantly less than the anticipated volume remaining in each of your media tanks. As it seems the controller had been originally incorrectly programmed as a single tank softener, perhaps one tank of resin has had little/no use whereas the alternate tank has been overused.

Because iron will accumulate on the resin surface, an accumulation of iron (iron fouling) will impair the resin's ability to remove hardness. Suggest adding a strong mixture of Iron Out into the brine tank during each of the 2 high salt regenerations detailed below.

Because the control valve had not been functioning properly and required rebuilding, regeneration had likely not occured when it should have so I suspect at least 1 tank's total (40,000 gr) capacity had been exhausted. To regenerate 100% of each tank's capacity will require a 1X regeneration with 25 lbs salt for each.

To dissolve 25 lbs will require 8.3 gallons water to enter the brine tank. Because your current 12-minute Brine Fill setting (Step #4) will cause the brine tank to refill with 6 gallons (12 minutes X 0.5 GPM BLFC), you could add an additional 2.5 gallons using a bucket, then wait ~1.5 hrs to allow additional salt to dissolve and then initiate a manual regeneration for 1 tank. After that Regen cycle has concluded and a further 6-gallons has entered the brine tank, again, add a further 2.5 gallons. While waiting for additional salt to dissolve, reprogram Step #4 to the 7-minute setting recommended above. Once the 1.5 hrs has elapsed, initiate a manual regeneration for the 2nd tank. At the end of that Regen cycle, the brine tank should then refill with the 3.5 gallons water needed to dissolve 10 lbs salt required to regenerate 30,000 grains capacity ongoing.

 

[Reach4]

If things work fine, there is a setting change that you may want to try in the future. What I describe below is the way it works for the SXT controller and may work the same for the SE:

Instead of immediate regeneration, you could change from immediate regen to delayed. Then as one tank gets exhausted, the valve immediately switches to the other tank. The difference is that rather than regenerating right away, it waits until Regeneration Time: 12:01, or whatever time you select, to regen the exhausted tank.

To do that you would want to be sure you would never exhaust a whole tank in one day.

 

[JoeHomeOwner]

@Bannerman I don't know the actual age. When I had it apart I tried to look at the resin. Both seem to have about the same amount in them. I took some pics when I had it apart. Not sure if they're helpful.

I'll be glad to do the 25LB regen to clean it out. (I was wondering if the resin was ruined because of the iron and considered replacing it.)
Did I understand correctly it will 'restore' the resin similar to new?

I have the first 2.5 gallons in soaking and am waiting ~1.5 hrs before initiating the manual regeneration. (To make the strong mixture of Iron Out, I added 2 cups into the 2.5 gallons.)

btw, I really appreciate your help so far, before posting to this forum I was debating replacing the whole thing and being done with it.

@Reach4 Thanks for the suggestion. Our water usage varies greatly. Sometimes there are 'surges' of use. There are days when both clothes washers are being used back to back, plus multiple dishwasher loads, plus multiple shower, etc... The regen is not so loud, I'll leave it at immediate to ensure it will always be ready.

 

[Reach4]

I'll be glad to do the 25LB regen to clean it out. (I was wondering if the resin was ruined because of the iron and considered replacing it.)
Did I understand correctly it will 'restore' the resin similar to new?

If it has been facing iron, I would be looking at treating with Iron Out as well as regenerating.

 

[JoeHomeOwner]

Is the 'treating with Iron Out', adding 1/4cup Iron Out with each 40lb bag of Salt or something different? (I'd like to be sure I am caring for it better going forward.)

 

[Reach4]

Is the 'treating with Iron Out', adding 1/4cup Iron Out with each 40lb bag of Salt or something different? (I'd like to be sure I am caring for it better going forward.)

If you are doing that with the IO routinely now, then a more intensive batch method may not be needed. But as a special treatment, you would draw in a dose of IO solution. Then I would stop the flow, using the bypass, to allow more contact time to the resin.

I am wondering if somehow your valve was always regenerating one tank, but drawing water from the not-regenerated tank. I don't know if that is what would happen if the dual tank 9000 were programmed to single tank. It might explain your symptoms.

 

[JoeHomeOwner]

Unfortunately there is no bypass. Just a shutoff on the supply pipe.

 

[Reach4]

Unfortunately there is no bypass. Just a shutoff on the supply pipe.

That would work. It would just leave your house without water while the valve is shut.

Here is something I had written up:
=====================================================
A way to use Iron Out crystals to treat your resin periodically to deal with iron. This is not an authoritative procedure, but it should be pretty good.

A softener is not the best way to deal with significant iron, but it can be economical or cash-flow positive.

1.Dissolve 1/4 to 1/2 cup of Iron Out crystals into maybe 1 or 2 gallons of warm water.(X1: option -- maybe up the dose) Pour this into the brine tank, possibly down the brine tube. Agitate if you can.
2. Let this sit for 2 hours to 2 weeks. (X2: option: move the salt aside if the salt is shallow to expose liquid, and pour the IO into the liquid.
3. Start a regeneration. Usually after backwash, the brine draw cycle starts. Get to brine draw however it happens. Let the brine get drawn until the the brine tank is almost drawn. (X2) Alternatively monitor the drain line with a TDS meter, and look for a big increase in TDS. At that point, stop the flow of water with the bypass valve. That will let the solution sit in contact with the resin.

4. Let the solution sit in the resin for a time. That time (X3) might be an hour or might be 4 hours.

5a alternative: With an electronic timer, the cycling will continue while the water is off. However since the water is blocked, the solution says in contact with the resin. Then do a full regeneration to get the solution all cleaned out.

5b alternative: If you have an electromechanical valve, you can unplug the softener, and the softener will hold in the midst of the BD cycle. After you turn the water on, brine draw will continue, and you can slowly let the brine+IO interact with the resin for maybe 30 minutes. Turn the power back on, and the regen will continue and complete. That will get more efficiency out of the solution.

======================================
My intention now is to use a different procedure involving a utility pump in a bucket circulating into the drain valve on the pressure tank and out the drain on the softener, returning solution to the bucket. However I was planning to do that to my iron+H2S backwashing filter, and not my softener.

 

[JoeHomeOwner]

I've completed the strong mixture of Iron Out with high salt regeneration on both tanks.

Current settings are:
Display Format: U--1
Regeneration Type: 7--2
Treated Water Capacity: 937
Regeneration Time: (no longer displays since setting regen type to 7--2)
Regeneration Day Override: AOFF
Regeneration Cycle Step #1: 1-10
Regeneration Cycle Step #2: 2-60
Regeneration Cycle Step #3: 3--5
Regeneration Cycle Step #4: 4--7
Regeneration Cycle Step #5: SOFF
Flow Meter Size: F133
Valve Type: o--2
Tank In Service: o-U2 or o-U1 ( displays now since changed valve type)
Line Frequency: LF60

@Bannerman Thanks for the computations, processes and guidance. The detailed explanations and comments were a tremendous help. (I had to re-read them a lot before understanding. At first I found it frustrating, but latter realized the repeated rereading/rethinking helped me understand more fully.)

@Reach4 Thanks again for the technical doc and for your thoughts on cleaning and configurations too.

Current plan is to continue with the IO dose per salt bag and monitor the situation.

 

[JoeHomeOwner]

To me, things seemed to have been going well the last 2 weeks. My wife was still skeptical (usually she is right an notices things when I don't.) So Friday I switch the "Treated Water Capacity: 937" to 800 thinking the system would regenerate sooner if the full resin capacity wasn't really still there.
This morning my shower felt 'sticky' compared to the 'smooth' I've been experiencing. I looked at the softener and it was blinking -U2- and 735. So I it seems I have used 65 gallons since on Unit 2. I have a 5B hardness test and the bathroom sink directly above the hot water tank and water softener has individual handles for hot vs cold. I tested hot and it measures 6 grains per gallon. I tested the cold and it was almost blue with no drops (added one drop and was completely blue.) I retested cold and it was even closer to completely blue before adding any drops.

My speculation is that -U1- was not working correctly and left a mix of hardwater in the hot water tank, while -U2- is working properly.

I am not sure what to do next. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Reach4]

For those reading, U1 means using tank 1, and U2 means using tank 2.

It takes a while for the softer water to make its way thru the WH tank. At this point everything may be working, but I am not sure.