Fleck 7000sxt Still Not Softening

[Dude051]

TL;DR - My softener is not softening after back to back regeneration at the max salt capacity. Verified salt dose, brine tank draw and line, valve not clogged. System is only about 2 years old, and it was bought new, installed by me in our at the time 3 year old home.

Fleck 7000sxt
BLFC : 0.250
cubic ft resin : 1.5
resin: ResinTech GC10 10% CrossLink
tank: 10x54 48k "capacity"
Raw hardness : 18.0 gpg (city municipal water)
Estimated gal/day : 300 GAL (average, I have actually recorded and monitored usage at the Fleck meter)

Settings - Not efficient at all but I want this working first
DF = GAL
VT = df2b
Ct = Fd
C = 48
H = 20
RS = cr
DO = 14
RT = 2:00
B1 = 10
BD = 60
B2 = 5
RR = 10
BF = 30
FM = t1.2

Goals - Eventually for efficiency
salt lb/cuft : 8
soft hardness: 0-3 gpg
need to not kill my recently replaced/rebuilt tankless water heater

Full Story
So I have had quite the journey trying to get my softener working.

1. Resin was coming through the water line after a regen: added a gravel bed to solve this.
2. A leak was dripping from the bypass constantly even after replacing o-rings: replaced the bypass with a new one.
3. Brine was not getting pulled into the tank: pulled and repaired the float valve in the brine tank which had blown at the o-ring and was just pulling air.

This left me to about a week ago. The water was soft for about a day after the brine tank fix and a manual half baked regen which was me putting the tube directly into the brine while I fixed the float valve. The water was hard the next day.

Since it had probably been months over the course of these repairs the resin had not been properly regenerated as well in a long time, I felt the need to fully regen and scrub the system.

To scrub and do a full regen, I estimated there was about 4 gallons of brine in my tank from my previous settings (BF =16 * BLFC .25 = 4) , so I dumped about 5 GAL from a bucket into the tank which should have given me about 9 GAL water * 3 lbs of salt = 27 GAL brine. I pushed the button to do a delayed regen overnight.

Come the next day, my Hach 5b comes in, and the soft water is coming out at a hardness of 22! My raw hardness is 18. Also, the wife says to me that during her shower, the water tasted salty. Sure enough, I taste the water and its got a definite salt taste to it. My only guess is I forgot to extend my old settings for B1=6, B2=3, and RR=5? This was a new problem, so I really was taking a stab in the dark.

I ran a manual regen again, this time skipping both the BD and BF. Salty taste was then gone, but water was testing at my raw hardness of 18 gpg.

I decided to set my softener to the most inefficient settings in an attempt to balance things out again. I set my BF to 30 with my BFLC at .25 which would give me 7.5 GAL * 3 lbs salt = 22.5 GAL of brine for the 1.5 cuft of resin. This is in the settings at the top of my post and are what are currently set.

As of today, I have done two regens over the last few days, and still this morning my tests show maybe 16 or 17 gpg hardness. I have checked, and the brine line is pulling brine and using salt. The fleck brine valve doesn't appear to be clogged or issues with flow.

What can be my next steps to get this working? Any help appreciated!

 

[Bannerman]

1. Resin was coming through the water line after a regen: added a gravel bed to solve this.

Resin in house plumbing is usually indicative of a broken bottom screen which would then need to be replaced. Adding gravel is not the appropriate fix but is only masking the problem.

You didn't mention resetting 'C' so I expect 48 is what you had programmed all along. As your prior BF setting allowed 4 gallons water fill to dissolve 12 lbs salt, that brine quantity is appropriate to regenerate only 36K capacity, not 48.

For a 1.5 cuft softener, suggest 'C' = 36. Programming the total softener capacity (48) requires a large and inefficient amount of salt to be used. In addition, some capacity will become lost over time as the resin becomes worn and fractured and, whatever resin that escaped into the plumbing means further lost capacity. When too much capacity is programmed for use, capacity will decline to a point when not enough capacity remains to fully soften water at the flow rate usually used. Hardness leakage will occur and the water will feel hard although the softener is not yet due to regenerate.

Reset BF to 16 minutes. 16 X 0.25 BLFC = 4 gallons X 3 lbs/G = 12 lbs salt which is appropriate to regenerate 36K grains capacity.

I suspect salty water after regeneration was due to the increased quantity of brine and not also increasing the Brine Draw setting. The longer time needed to draw-in the extra brine would not allow adequate rinse time remaining to rinse all of the brine from the resin. The time required to draw all the brine should be ~1/4 of the BD setting.

As you currently have enough water in the brine tank to dissolve 22+ lbs of salt, reset the C and BF settings and initiate another manual regen cycle. When later obtaining a sample to perform a hardness test, make sure to run the water long enough to ensure the sample is obtained from the softener and is not water which had been sitting in the pipes.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

1. Resin was coming through the water line after a regen: added a gravel bed to solve this.

Do you mean supply lines/faucets for the house, or do you mean the softener drain line?

Does your system have a top basket? Maybe your DLFC is too big. Normal for backwash would be 2.4 GPM. If your actual backwash rate was a lot more, that could blow resin out of the drain line if there is not a top basket.

A broken bottom basket could blow resin out of the drain line during the rapid rinse. A broken bottom basket could blow resin into your house plumbing during service, and the flow could exceed the flow rate during rapid rinse.

If you had lost 1/2 or more of your resin down the drain line or into the WH, would you have noticed?

If you drain and flush your WH thru a screen or course cloth, you might catch resin from there.

 

[Dude051]

So sadly I never solved the mystery of resin in my water lines. I had actual resin beads in faucets and especially it would clog the screen of my clothes washer which I had to clean regularly.

I went so far as to pull the entire distributor tube, I inspected and even replaced the PVC piece and basket with no effect. There is no top basket, only a bottom one. One point of interest is its a Fleck 1.05" "high flow" distributor basket #40922. Putting in a gravel bed did solve whatever the issue was. My only guess now is maybe it was the brine tank valve that during the BD caused air to come into the system which might introduce resin into the valve and then after the regen it got flushed into the house from there.

@Bannerman you are correct, my C setting was previously at actually 33.

I am going to reset again to C=36 and BF=16 then run another regen and see.

 

[Bannerman]

maybe it was the brine tank valve that during the BD caused air to come into the system which might introduce resin into the valve

Air entering through the brine pickup would be introduced to the top of the resin tank and depending on the amount of air, will likely remain trapped at the top of the tank until the next backwash cycle at which point, it would be ejected to drain.

In a downflow softener, hard water enters at the top of the tank, flows downward through the resin bed and gravel to the the lower distributor basket and up the riser tube and out to house plumbing. If resin is found in the house plumbing, then a broken lower distributor basket or riser tube is the usual cause.

During backwash, water flows in reverse, flowing down the riser and up from the tank bottom while lifting and reclassifying the resin. Any resin which is lifted too much is typically flushed to drain since water drawn within the house would bypass the softener while regeneration is occuring.

When you added the gravel under bed, did you notice how much resin was remaining?

 

[Dude051]

Got it. When I added the gravel it seemed as if it had not lost much resin. The way I got the distributor tube and basket down into the bed was I pushed it into the bed, got on a ladder and blew into the tube until I got it all the way down.

The tube stuck out about half the length of the tank during this process.

To add to that issue, it was not constant, it was only after regenerating the system that I seemed to get resin in my water lines.

 

[Reach4]

Any chance that the Fleck 61419 is missing?

 

[Dude051]

I don't believe I have a Fleck 61419 if you are meaning the 32mm adapter. I have the Fleck 40677 32mm distributor tube so its 32mm all the way to the basket. Can confirm too because this is what I replaced.

 

[Dude051]

So I did a full regen cycle, and the water is still testing at 18 gpg. I let the water run through for a solid 1-2 minutes before getting my sample. Current settings are:

DF = GAL
VT = df2b
Ct = Fd
C = 36
H = 20
RS = cr
DO = 14
RT = 2:00
B1 = 10
BD = 60
B2 = 5
RR = 10
BF = 16
FM = t1.2

To note, that there was actually probably 7.5 GAL of brine for a total of 22+ lbs of salt used.

I confirmed before running the brine water line was well above my salt level. After this regen, it is below the salt and I can only see it by looking down the float tube. So I know it pulled and refilled the brine.

 

[Bannerman]

The tube stuck out about half the length of the tank during this process.

Not understanding this meaning.

The riser tube is usually required to be flush with the top of the tank when installed. If left higher than it should be, the riser may bend or become broken when the control valve is screwed down onto to the tank neck. When resin and gravel is already within the tank, it is commonly recommended to dump-out the resin and gravel to ensure the bottom basket is fully centered into the dimple at the tank bottom, before the gravel and resin is re-added.

 

[Dude051]

The riser tube was flush with the top of the tank when installed. I did not remove the resin before putting the riser tube back in, so this is what I was referring to.

 

[Reach4]

One point of interest is its a Fleck 1.05" "high flow" distributor basket #40922.

1.05 OD is "3/4 PVC" OD.

I don't believe I have a Fleck 61419 if you are meaning the 32mm adapter. I have the Fleck 40677 32mm distributor tube so its 32mm all the way to the basket. Can confirm too because this is what I replaced.

1.05 inches is 26.67 mm.

 

[Bannerman]

So I did a full regen cycle, and the water is still testing at 18 gpg.

This is the same as your raw water hardness so it appears the hard water is not flowing through the resin.

If there is leakage around the top of the riser tube where it connects to the control valve, then the incoming brine and hard water flow entering the tank, will have a path direct to the outlet or drain, depending on the cycle. If there is a leak around the riser tube, then the flow through the resin bed will be reduced or may not occur.

Suggest tasting the drain discharge shortly after setting the controller to BD. The drain discharge is clean water. During Brine Draw, it should take some time (several minutes) before salty brine flows through the resin bed and starts to be discharged to drain whereas with a riser seal leak, the brine discharge would taste salty almost right away.

The taste test is a simple and easy method to test before pulling the valve head off to inspect of replace the 'O' ring in the riser tube socket or the adaptor if used.

 

[Dude051]

1.05 OD is "3/4 PVC" OD.

Sorry I grabbed the wrong info from Google. it is the Fleck 40924 which is 32mm, "1-1/4 PVC" 1.66 OD.


Thanks for the help all, I tasted the drain after discharge and it was salty immediately. I pulled the valve this morning, and discovered that the o-ring was missing from the riser which was allowing the water to flow past and directly back into the valve.

To also sum this up, I think this solves my gravel and resin in the line mystery. When I looked into the tank, the gravel never settled to the bottom I assume because it wasn't able to actually flush the resin. This was probably holding the resin down during the regen cycles, and stopped the resin from getting into my lines which I believe was leaking past around the riser due to the missing o-ring.

Long story short - thanks for the help and I have a new o-ring on order. Hopefully this is the last thing I have to fix to get this working!

 

[Reach4]

Suggest tasting the drain discharge shortly after setting the controller to BD. The drain discharge is clean water. During Brine Draw, it should take some time (several minutes) before salty brine flows through the resin bed and starts to be discharged to drain whereas with a riser seal leak, the brine discharge would taste salty almost right away.

Good call.

Long story short - thanks for the help and I have a new o-ring on order.

Congratulations on the troubleshooting.

When you install an O-ring, new or used, you should lightly lube it with approved silicone lubricant. I like Molykote 111, which is thicker than many. Dow Corning 7 Release Compound is thinner and is the choice of some professionals; I suspect it is quicker. Locally you can pick up https://www.danco.com/product/0-5-oz-silicone-faucet-grease/ Danco 88693. A little goes a long way.

Do you think this ring was missing since day one, and is why you got in there with gravel etc?

 

[Dude051]

Thanks I actually have the Danco silicon grease and it works great. I used it when I was tearing down and troubleshooting my faulty bypass.

Sadly I think the o-ring has been missing this whole time. It would explain how I pulled the last distributor and found no issues and why the problems persisted even after replacing it.

Again guessing here, but when I ordered the system I made a line item change for the 32mm. So I suspect that when they built it before shipping they pulled the 1.05" adapter and left the o-ring out by mistake.

This is my best guess seeing as I never touched this part during assembly. The system shipped with the distributor and resin already in the tank and I just dropped the Fleck valve on it.

I never noticed and thought to look for an o-ring there. Now I do!

 

[Reach4]

I never noticed and thought to look for an o-ring there. Now I do!

Maybe post a picture or two for others to find and look out for.