Fleck 5810 XTR2

[Bill Lundgren]

I need some help with my new install. I purchased a 60,000 Fleck 5810 XTR2 and have the following:

Media 2CF of Purolite SST 60
Downflow
12x48 Resin Tank
BFLC 0.25gpm
Injector 0
Drain Flow 3.5
Brine Tank 15"x17"x36"
Hardness 30 grains (includes 0.5 for iron and 0.5 for manganese)
Salt Dosage 12pcf (provided by seller, based on Purolite SST60)
Reserve 300 Gallons

Instructions during the install said that I didn't need to install gravel since my tank was 12" diameter or less. The seller sent me gravel. I contacted seller and they said to go ahead and also install the gravel. So I installed the gravel and the 2 CF of resin. Differing instructions from the seller said the tank should be 1/2 to 3/4 full. I have only 11.5 inches clearance from the top of the tank to the top of the resin.

I've been through about two cycles. I noticed when I showered that the water was hard. I looked at the softener and had 300 gallons left. I got my Hach Kit out it measured 29 Grains of hardness. So I manually ran a cycle. Below are the readings:

[12" of brine in the brine tank]
Backwash 10 min
Draw 1 hr [4" left at bottom of tank]
Rapid Rinse 10 min
Tank Refill 12 min

Display readout says I have 1496 Gallons to use

Questions:
1. Is 11.5 inches enough clearance in the tank for expansion of the resin? I shined a flashlight during backwash and it looked like the resin got to the top of the tank after 3 minutes.
2. What could be the cause of the breakthrough?

Thanks!
Bill

 

[Reach4]

The seller sent me gravel. I contacted seller and they said to go ahead and also install the gravel. So I installed the gravel and the 2 CF of resin. Differing instructions from the seller said the tank should be 1/2 to 3/4 full. I have only 11.5 inches clearance from the top of the tank to the top of the resin.

How much gravel did you put in?

Anyway, typical is 2/3 full.

Are you sure your tank is not 12" x 52"? That is more common.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

Gotta love the lowest cost online resellers. I don't have my chart in front of me but a 12x52 is the correct size for 2 ft3 of resin, not a 12x48. 12x48 is a lot cheaper to ship if going by UPS. Gravel is expensive to ship, another reason why a few online resellers say you don't need it. Unless you have a Vortech tank, you need resin. I am not going to debate this, "because I read it online" means very little. The stories I could tell you about "fake news" and the articles my friends and I write to see if the online "water treatment" companies will pick up and post on their websites … I could write a book on it.
We like to see the tank 2/3 full, the dome sections are not really considered in the equations. A 12x52 will be close enough with 2 ft3 of resin. Temperature compensation needs to be considered when determining the backwash flow rates. Cold water is more dense therefore it will require less GPM to do the same amount of media bed lift.

What is your BLFC, Injector, and DLFC?

Using SST resin may help with iron and manganese but regardless, you will need to do considerable compensation with .5 ppm of manganese. That is not insignificant. What is your pH? Do you have a real laboratory water test you can post so we can make semi accurate suggestions?

 

[Bill Lundgren]

How much gravel did you put in?

Anyway, typical is 2/3 full.

Are you sure your tank is not 12" x 52"? That is more common.

I can't recall the quantity being on the box, but I would assume 1/2CF? The tank is 12x48.

 

[ditttohead]

a 12" diameter tank should use about 20 pounds, or 2/5ths ft3. Height does not matter when it comes to gravel qty., in theory it shold fill the domed portion of the tank. What bottom screen was in the system? 12x48 is common with online resellers due to the lower shipping cost. "No gravel" needed is a common mantra by these companies in their desperate search to be the lowest price. Online is brutal since price is the main driver. Saving $100-$200 is easy by using garbage components throughout the system.

 

[Bill Lundgren]

Gotta love the lowest cost online resellers. I don't have my chart in front of me but a 12x52 is the correct size for 2 ft3 of resin, not a 12x48. 12x48 is a lot cheaper to ship if going by UPS. Gravel is expensive to ship, another reason why a few online resellers say you don't need it. Unless you have a Vortech tank, you need resin. I am not going to debate this, "because I read it online" means very little. The stories I could tell you about "fake news" and the articles my friends and I write to see if the online "water treatment" companies will pick up and post on their websites … I could write a book on it.
We like to see the tank 2/3 full, the dome sections are not really considered in the equations. A 12x52 will be close enough with 2 ft3 of resin. Temperature compensation needs to be considered when determining the backwash flow rates. Cold water is more dense therefore it will require less GPM to do the same amount of media bed lift.

What is your BLFC, Injector, and DLFC?

Using SST resin may help with iron and manganese but regardless, you will need to do considerable compensation with .5 ppm of manganese. That is not insignificant. What is your pH? Do you have a real laboratory water test you can post so we can make semi accurate suggestions?

BLFC is 0.25; Injector is "0"; DLFC is 3.5gpm

Water Test Results (Post 10um Whole House Filter, which I use as a pre-filter for iron particulate) from a semi-reliable lab. I say that because the hardness result on my recent lab test came back with hardness of 8 grains - I tested it with a new Hach kit and got 29 grains. Meanwhile this is the same lab that did the test a couple years ago and came back with 30 grains...

Total Coliform Absent
Aluminum ND
Arsenic ND
Barium ND
Cadmium ND
Chromium ND
Copper 0.0222
Iron 0.08
Lead ND
Lithium 0.021
Magnesium 34.49
Manganese 0.48
Mercury ND
Nickel ND
Potassium 3.3
Selenium ND
Silica 15.8
Silver ND
Sodium 42
Strontium 0.487
Uranium ND
Zinc ND
Alkalinity 180
Hardness (mg/l) 500
Hardness (Grains) 29
pH 7.2
Total Disolved Solids 480
Turbidity 0.4
Bromide ND
Chloride 230
Flouride ND
Nitrate ND
Nitrite ND
Otho Phosphate ND
Sulphate 50

 

[Bill Lundgren]

a 12" diameter tank should use about 20 pounds, or 2/5ths ft3. Height does not matter when it comes to gravel qty., in theory it shold fill the domed portion of the tank. What bottom screen was in the system? 12x48 is common with online resellers due to the lower shipping cost. "No gravel" needed is a common mantra by these companies in their desperate search to be the lowest price. Online is brutal since price is the main driver. Saving $100-$200 is easy by using garbage components throughout the system.

Not sure what bottom screen was used. It came already installed, and all I had to do was unscrew the control panel, cover the riser, and fill with gravel and resin. I think the bottom was just a simple distribution basket with a point at the end. I was just to make sure it stayed in the middle while filling with the gravel and resin.

 

[ditttohead]

A test from a few years ago has very limited value. Water can change significantly over time.

Reasonable water except for the manganese. Your relatively low pH is beneficial as it will reduce the fouling of the resin bed. I would highly recommend adding citric acid to the brine tank when you add salt in order to acidify the brine water. This will reduce the fouling of the resin due to the high manganese levels. Manganese tends to be a lot more fouling than iron. At .5 ppm I would recommend adding at least 5-10 GPG to your hardness setting. Set the Day Override to 7 days if you want the resin to last for a few years. What is your water temperature? DLFC is based on water temperature/bed expansion%.

As seen in other posts, there are some truly horrific cheap bottom screens and riser tubes available. So many online resellers have figured out that if they are priced $1 over the competition they lose a lot of sales. A very large online reseller recently increased their prices by a reasonable amount, lost half their sales and more than doubled their profits. Novel idea. Selling things at 10% above cost is not a way to keep a business open for very long.

 

[Bill Lundgren]

Reasonable water except for the manganese. Your relatively low pH is beneficial as it will reduce the fouling of the resin bed. I would highly recommend adding citric acid to the brine tank when you add salt in order to acidify the brine water. This will reduce the fouling of the resin due to the high manganese levels. Manganese tends to be a lot more fouling than iron. At .5 ppm I would recommend adding at least 5-10 GPG to your hardness setting. Set the Day Override to 7 days if you want the resin to last for a few years. What is your water temperature? DLFC is based on water temperature/bed expansion%.

Water temp is 57 degrees F. When you say citric acid, what do you mean - name brand wise? I have 3 gallons of Res Care I could use, but I'm not sure what that contains...

 

[Bill Lundgren]

A test from a few years ago has very limited value. Water can change significantly over time.

Reasonable water except for the manganese. Your relatively low pH is beneficial as it will reduce the fouling of the resin bed. I would highly recommend adding citric acid to the brine tank when you add salt in order to acidify the brine water. This will reduce the fouling of the resin due to the high manganese levels. Manganese tends to be a lot more fouling than iron. At .5 ppm I would recommend adding at least 5-10 GPG to your hardness setting. Set the Day Override to 7 days if you want the resin to last for a few years. What is your water temperature? DLFC is based on water temperature/bed expansion%.

As seen in other posts, there are some truly horrific cheap bottom screens and riser tubes available. So many online resellers have figured out that if they are priced $1 over the competition they lose a lot of sales. A very large online reseller recently increased their prices by a reasonable amount, lost half their sales and more than doubled their profits. Novel idea. Selling things at 10% above cost is not a way to keep a business open for very long.

The water results were all recent, except for hardness which I replaced with my Hach results.

 

[ditttohead]

Rescare is excellent!

57 is way too low for the 3.5 GPM DLFC especially with a shorter tank. See the linked tables. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/66-67

 

[Bill Lundgren]

Rescare is excellent!

57 is way too low for the 3.5 GPM DLFC especially with a shorter tank. See the linked tables. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/66-67

I read the publication, but still a bit confused. What does backwash expansion tell me?

 

[Bill Lundgren]

Backwash Expansion Calculation:
Linear velocity = drain flow rate/area of tank
Linear velocity = 3.5 gpm/((3.217)(0.5)^2) = 4.375 gpm/sf
Temp of water = 57 F = 14 C
I calculate, based on manufacturer chart a Backwash Expansion of ~43%

Does this sound right?

 

[Bill Lundgren]

Can someone explain to me how salt dosage is calculated?

 

[Reach4]

Linear velocity = 3.5 gpm/((3.217)(0.5)^2) = 4.375 gpm/sf

12 inch tank, radius 0.5 ft.
pi=3.1416
3.5 gpm/ (pi* (0.5ft ^2))
=4.456 gpm/sqft

That is not linear velocity.