Fimco Indexing & Unknown Valve

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JimIrrigation

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I have a Fimco 6 zone indexing valve. I’ve replaced all of the parts in it, as I was having a problem with the zones sticking. Although everything is new in the valve, on occasion, the zones still stick, and will not move to the next zone.

When it does work, I have watched it move. I turn off the pump, and 30 seconds later, the Cam indicator moves to the next zone. I have noticed that this in conjunction with a sucking noise, and the wire on the other valve in my photo jerking back a bit.

So my questions are: What is the other valve in the picture (it’s the black valve on the left with the light blue cap, with a wire attached to it terminating at an an adapter on the PVC inlet pipe)? Do I need it? What is its function? Does the Fimco indexing valve need it? Does it have a vacuum function that is causing the Fimco zones to stick?

Thank you!

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WorthFlorida

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The valve on the left is a master valve, it appears it was added to hold prime since I do not see a check valve on the suction side. You should find it wired to the MV terminal at the controller. Is it a mechanical timer or a digital controller.? After the MV I see a filter so this valve was installed at that location to clean the filter without losing prime. Also, something else goes off to the left into the ground.

What is the black tube or wire on the suction side? Usually you never see a valve on the well side. Dig around that valve and see if the might be a check valve below ground.

Do you definitely have six zones. I had a six zone index valve but a five zone cam was used for the actual five zone irrigation. The sixth zone was just a dummy pipe.

It appears things have been changed out a few times by all of the couplers and little room to add a vacuum breaker. I think you may need a vacuum breaker before the index valve with this current set up. When the pump shuts off the irrigation lines drain of water either due to siphoning or the zone is sloped down hill. It's common to hear gurgling.

I'm trying to find what would be the best breaker to add so I may report back. Up to year 2000, these indexing valves were used a lot because of cost. Now individual valves for each zone is the norm. Cost is way down but it will require a new controller and a lot of digging and reconfiguring. When my index valve started to get jammed and having to tap the valve to get the valve to move, I converted to individual zones with a new controller. It cost a few hundred dollars to do it myself. A few advantages is the pump runs continuously, less time irrigating and new controllers have WiFi feature for remote control.
 

JimIrrigation

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Thank you, WorthFlorida.

The controller used is a basic K Rain mechanical timer. I attached a picture of it.

This is a six zone system. It has a six zone cam, also. I’ve seen each of the six zones‘ sprinklers operating when I’ve checked the functioning of the Fimco valve.

I suspected I needed a vacuum breaker. Fimco sells one. Is that one ok? Anyway, I’m not sure how or where I would install it. As you say there is no room and way too many couplers. I can’t see any way of doing it unless I expand the PVC pipes out (at the northern part of the picture).

I’ll dig around and look for a check valve and get back to you. I have no idea what that pipe is that goes off to the left in the ground.

I don’t like the filter system. But if I understand you correctly, it sounds like I need the Master Valve to maintain prime. Or, could I get rid of the Master Valve and Filter altogether?

I don’t know if I would want to go with a new controller and individual valves. That may be too much for me to do. I’m just trying to keep it simple… but your idea does sound like it works much better.

I really appreciate your help. Although I’ve replaced the parts in the Fimco valve, I’ve been staring at that Master Valve for years wondering what it is!

Single Station Irrigation Controllers.png
 

WorthFlorida

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Fimco has a saddle valve type vacuum breaker. That should work with your setup for you only need to drill a 1/4" hole.

I would leave the filter, I'm assuming it is a spin down filter. If your well brings up some sediments it traps it at the filter instead of clogging up sprinkler nozzles.

saddle-valve-with-breaker.jpg
 

WorthFlorida

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I'm curious and when you can, please get a closeup of the what I think is a master valve and where it connects to. I don't see a solenoid attached, it maybe internal. Most are 24v ac. Thanks, I'm always trying to learn.
 

JimIrrigation

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I think I know what the unknown valve is.

It is a hydraulic operated master valve. A self actuated pressure control valve with a pilot tube. It is completely mechanical with no electric parts and no solenoid.

My pump acts as a booster for an artesian well which is 200 feet away. When the pump is off, water still flows a fair amount because of the artesian source. So I’m guessing the control valve is necessary to stop the flow to the sprinklers when the pump is off.

Anyway, I’ll need to replace the pump and plumbing soon, so I’ll need a new valve. I’d rather not get an electrical solenoid valve.

My question is - does anyone know if they sell or make these types of mechanical valves anymore? Does anyone know how I can buy one?

Thank you!
 

WorthFlorida

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I never knew they existed. It reads normally open? I would call Sprinkler werehouse.


This one is "flow control". Not sure myself what that means.

The above are listed as 1". Toro web site appears to have other sizes.
 
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JimIrrigation

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Thank you!

I’m thinking now I might do some sort of conversion.

If I put electrical valves where the indexing valve was, can I install them vertically on top of the 6 pvc outlets?

I know I’ll need a new controller, but will a controller start the pump at 220v, and handle 6 valves at 24v?

It looks doable - I think you mentioned you did this yourself at some point? Do you have any suggestions?

I really appreciate all of your help. :)
 

WorthFlorida

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You're going to have to dig a wide hole and rearrange the pipes to each zone. The pipes to the index valve are too close. The master valve may have been installed to prevent siphoning when the pump shuts off.

Controllers have an MV connection for master valve or motor start relay. Wired from the controller is only 24vac to drive all zone valves and motor start relays. Well pumps are wired to a motor start relay. (https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-2-HP-Pump-Start-Relay-57009/100181554).

Controllers usually will start out with 4 zones then are expandible with plug in modules. Other are just fixed with 4-6 zones depending on the model. I have the Rainbird ESP-4MEI-LNKWIFI with WiFi. Besure to get the "outdoor" model. It includes a outdoor cover.

If you never did this before there is a lot going on. Just digging and rearranging the pipes takes time. You can install 6 individual zone valves or get a two 3 zone manifold (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Orbit-3-Valve-Inline-Manifold-Assembly-57253/202206757). Depending on you zone and pump sizes you may be able to tie two zones together via plumbing. Do install everything with 1" pipe and valves. A pump of 1.5 or 2 hp is usually adequate up to about a 1 acre lot.

Plan to budget about $200-250 for a controller, $300-400 for an irrigation pump, $50 for a motor start relay, $100-130 for valves, an assortment of fittings, pipe and irrigation wire. A master valve may be needed and it is also wired to the MV connection.

On Youtube there are hundreds of videos on this. You can get started reading this site https://school.sprinklerwarehouse.com/design-install/how-to-install-a-sprinkler-timer/
 

JimIrrigation

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Thank you!!

I’m following you on the controller, relay, digging, and 2 valve manifolds.

With regards to the pump and pipe size….
Right now I have a 1 1/2 HP pump; 2” in and 1 1/2” out. The Master Valve is 1 1/2”, and then the indexing valve is 1 1/2” in and the 6 zones out are 1 1/4”. This 1 1/4” even goes at least 2-3 acres across the property to the farthest zone. I’m assuming the pump can handle this distance and increased PVC size of 1 1/4” because it is a booster pump on an artesian well and is already getting water pressure help from the free flowing well.

I don’t think they sell 1 1/4” valves. Is it best to reduce down from a 1 1/2” valve to my 1 1/4” sprinkler pipes, or expand up from 1” valves?

In the pictures I sent you there is a mysterious pipe going down. It’s ball valve has always been at off, so I guess I’ll just replumb that and keep it “off”.

Is it best to get 6 solenoid valves with an anti siphon feature and skip the master valve, or get 6 basic solenoid valves, and 1 solenoid valve with an anti siphon feature and use that as a master valve? Or does it matter? Are these all normally closed? My hydraulic valve is normally open.

I found the Toro hydraulic valve that seems like an exact model for the one I currently have. They seem to sell them at distributors in my area, as there are still many people with indexing valves and booster pumps for artesian wells. So, I’m wondering… when this was installed 20 years ago, why wasn’t it done with an electrical system? Was it better to use indexing valves back then? Were solenoid valves new and unproven back then? Should I still stick with an all hydraulic system because that is a best practice for booster/artesian wells, and that’s why it was installed that way in the first place?

Thank you for taking the time to help with this. I know I have a lot of questions…. it just seems like one of those things where it’s important to understand all the details. Anyway, I hope you have a great day!
 

WorthFlorida

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Indexing valves at one time were common because they were inexpensive compared to solenoid system, use a simple and cheap low cost mechanical timers. But they were a PITA if you only wanted to water one zone manually and they also eventually fail and either needed a rebuilt or replacement. that wait time between zones is usually 12 minutes so it can take forever to go through a watering cycle. Here is an old mechanical Rainbird timer single zone. For solenoid control it was a much larger with one clock and several timer wheels for each zone. It was big and expensive for its day.

Now, controllers are better and lower cost as compared to years ago, most of not all patents have expired on the solenoid valves so anyone can manufacture them.

For sizing you know what the 1.5hp pump can do. Upping it to 2HP is really your call but the output will usually be 2". For 1-1/4", go with 1.5 inch valves and use PVC reducers if you can find them. You're fortunate to have an irrigation supplier nearby. If they do not have the reducers try electrical PVC fittings. HD usually has a good assortment. FYI all valves are usually cemented in so getting things set up and cut to length can be a challenge.

You have a nice cast iron irrigation pump that wears like iron (no pun intended) and they are still made. Irrigation pumps have a few points that fail, 1) the motor burns out, 2) motor bearings fail and start to squeal or seize, 3) the start capacitor goes bad. 4) the seal on the impeller shaft wears out and starts to leak. I've seen where the motor housing rusts out and that is no fixable but the others are.

All irrigation pumps need a check valve on the suction side to prevent lost of prime. In your case the master valve may also acting as a check valve. What I forgot to mention is you can place all valves about ground is a neat row or bury them with irrigation boxes.

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JimIrrigation

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Ok, thanks again!

I’m also thinking of somehow using some sort of threaded PVC unions/couplings/fittings so that I can swap a bad pump out more easily. Right now there is no room for anything. There are couplings filling up the entire plumbing run, it seems.

As it looks like I need to replace all the plumbing, I am wondering about the stop valve at ground level just before the pump. Is that a combo stop and check valve? I definitely need a new stop valve there - I’ve got one at the artesian well, but it is definitely handy to have one at the booster pump. I’ll need to get a stop - check valve, and yes, I am fortunate to have an irrigation supplier nearby! Can you tell from the pictures I sent you if I have a stop-check valve or just a stop valve?

I’m wondering - if your pump stops running, are there any clues as to whether your motor burned out, or your start capacitor failed (or the other things you metioned)? Do you just start throwing parts at it - new capacitor, motor, impeller seal… or just replace the pump? It would seem like it would be tough to know if your motor burned out - maybe replacing a start capacitor might be a good place to start?

I know what you mean about the indexing valves. I’ve rebuilt mine, and installed a vacuum breaker, but every once in a while it still gets stuck on a zone. I did install a part on it that lets me push a button on the valve to move to a specific zone. It was a small improvement on the indexing valve. People must still use the indexing valves for simplicity only. I don’t know. I always see them at Home Depot and Lowes.

Here’s a video where someone is using an indexing valve, an electric valve, and a new model controller:


I suppose that is the normal setup for the indexing valves, and my setup with the hydraulic valve is not common?

Thanks for the 1.5” valves and reducers tip. I do like my pump. It is a Pentair DS3HF-01. Yes, I am concerned about the measuring of the PVC after I’ve cemented the valves… seems like it will be a challenge when hooking up to the pump. And I have to make sure I get good cement for the ABS to PVC connections.
 

WorthFlorida

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Where is there ABS? Not very common in South Florida. Irrigation valves are PVC regardless of color. Some irrigation systems will have poly pipe instead of PVC.
 

JimIrrigation

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Fimco’s vacuum breaker snap on assembly and Toro’s Hydraulic valve are ABS. Those products are not what we are talking about with the conversion, but I just figured I would be running into it again. My mistake.
 
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