Federal Pacific questions

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FullySprinklered

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I'll be installing a car charger for a customer, but I have a couple of hurdles to jump over. He's got a Federal Pacific panel from 1987, and it's loaded up. I need to install a sub-panel, but I'm way short on experience in dealing with this brand. I've been breaker shopping on the internet hoping to find a regular breaker with enough amperage to cover the 40a charger and the double ovens, currently fed by a 60a breaker. There are only three sp breakers of 1" size in the panel, the rest being space savers, probably 14 of them. The oven breaker is large and the two hvac breakers are large, but there's a smaller double pole breaker feeding, I think, the dryer. I was considering putting a larger breaker in the place of the 60a and working the oven cable into the new sub-panel. I hear turkey calling, but I'll come back and proofread this later. So, if you're used to working with the FP panels, please raise your hand. Thanks.
 

FullySprinklered

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I sent the customer a couple of links to some FP breakers for sale, which could work for our project. I have no idea if they will actually work/fit in his panel, so we'll have to wait and see. It'll take half a day to drive down there just to find out, once the breaker arrives. I know the poor guy feels screwed by circumstances, and me too.
 
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DonL

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My guess is that you need to upgrade the Main panel, to do it right.

Or just plug the charger into the Dryer Outlet.


Good Luck on your project.
 

FullySprinklered

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My guess is that you need to upgrade the Main panel, to do it right.

Or just plug the charger into the Dryer Outlet.


Good Luck on your project.
That would be the best solution for sure. I considered pulling the sub panel off the existing 60a breaker. I'm fairly sure it would work since it was a bit oversized for the double ovens, but going bigger would be the best thing to do.
 

hj

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quote; The oven breaker is large and the two hvac breakers are large, but there's a smaller double pole breaker feeding, I think, the dryer

When you say "large" are you referring to their physical size or the amperage, because a physically "smaller" two pole breaker would typically NOT be a 240v one.
 

FullySprinklered

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quote; The oven breaker is large and the two hvac breakers are large, but there's a smaller double pole breaker feeding, I think, the dryer

When you say "large" are you referring to their physical size or the amperage, because a physically "smaller" two pole breaker would typically NOT be a 240v one.
There is a large size double pole and a small size double pole. Physical size. One of the many mysteries I'm trying to solve. There are both in this panel. In addition, there are several brands,(FP, Connecticut Electric, American/FP, and Zinser) which may or may not fit in this panel. Also, there is a stab-lock, a bolt-on, and bolt-on stab-lock, and God knows what else. It could be that some breakers with the right name and right amperage may not fit in this panel. Lot to learn just to install one orphan breaker. BTW, is this Federal Pacific brand regional, or do you folks out west have them also?
 

hj

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Normally, a "small double pole" is really a 'two breaker single pole' because it cannot bridge both legs of the 240 buses. But, I suppose if they had the right configuration it would be possible. We HAD them, but I have not seen any for many years, but that does not mean they are not still around here.
 

FullySprinklered

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Went by the job this am. Breaker came in, but it was a bolt-on and we need a stab-lock. Customer is re-ordering.
Everyone who knows the ins and outs of Federal Pacific panels obviously died of old age long ago.
 
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Speedy Petey

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I'm kind of confused as to what you are wanting to do.
If you want to put the charger and ovens in the same sub-panel you'll likely need a 70-90A feeder. I would not do this myself. I'd move other circuits to the sub to make room for the sub breaker and use #6cu on a 60 breaker.

FPE does not have double SP breakers, they use skinny individual breakers like GE. The skinny double-pole breakers must be put in correctly to get the proper 240V from them. They should have rejection clips to prevent incorrect installation but these do not work very well.

Are you an electrician?
 

DonL

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Can you say SOL ?

I can.

You should not be playing with electricity, sometimes.

You do not need a fast charger, They make the batteries last a short amount of time, and can explode them. And should only be used outdoors.
 

FullySprinklered

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I want to put a 100a breaker in the slots currently occupied by a 60a breaker which supplies current to a wall oven/microwave combo. Customer also wants a 20a receptacle in the garage not far from the car charger. I'm going to supply power to the oven, the car charger, and the new dedicated 20a outlet from the new sub panel. It's a long crawl through the cold mud under the back deck just to get to the crawlspace door, but that's where I'll be pulling wires through to the garage area.
I've been playing with electricity on a daily basis for going on thirty years, DonL. If I don't know something, I'm not afraid to ask people who do know. That's how you find out.
Thanks for the come-back, Speedy.
 
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FullySprinklered

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Customer just let me know that the 100a stab-lock is in. He's scheduled for Friday, so I'll post an agony report over the weekend.
 

FullySprinklered

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This will be the agony report. I installed a 100a ten-slot sub panel for the customer today. Everything came down a little different from the way I pictured it, mostly on account of the fact that the Federal Pacific panel is a certified freak-show.
The 100a double pole breaker, second-hand online, is one more full grown hog. I made a commitment to install a more than adequate feed from the main panel to the sub panel, using a 100a breaker, stepping up from the 60a breaker in place, feeding the double ovens. (Actually an oven/micro combination). From the sub panel, I would be sending power to the ovens, the car charger (40a), and a 20a outlet in the garage for the gentleman's tool bench. I ultimately dropped the feed for the oven down a notch to a 50a breaker in the sub panel.
The first and biggest problem was the fit for the 100a breaker. The breakers don't latch on to the busses like other panels. There's a series of postage stamp size receivers bolted onto the busses, which have cut-outs in them to accept the blades on the breakers. I have to be careful how I explain this to avoid confusion and negate any benefit to be had from all this world class literature. I'll do partII tomorrow night.
 
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FullySprinklered

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Part Deux: The 100a breaker that we got to feed the sub panel, pushes the adjacent double pole 40a breaker off the panel. For some reason it needs to also stab the receivers on the right bank. Now I have to move the feed for the hvac outside unit (the 40a breaker), over to the sub panel. If the Federal Pacific breakers were readily available, then I would perhaps have other options, but the only source is online and that takes more time and more trips. The job is a 94 mile round trip from my house and this is my third trip.
Here's what I've got. I'm pulling power from the main panel into a new subpanel to power an electric car charger and a dedicated outlet for the work bench. Since I'm using the space in the main panel currently occupied by the ovens, 60a breaker, I'll be supplying the ovens from the sub panel. I've downsized the breaker to 50a which should be plenty. Since the space hog 100a breaker usurped the slots occupied by the hvac breaker, I've had to move it over to the sub panel. I reduced the breaker down to a 30a. The label on the outside unit showed a draw of something like 18.6 amps, and the cable was a 10-2wg. Shouldn't be a problem there.
The sub panel now has a 20a single, a 30a double, a 40a double, and a 50a double. In order, this is for the dedicated outlet for the work area, the outside havc unit, the car charger, and the oven/microwave circuit. The sub panel is fed from the 100a breaker through 2/0 aluminum cable. The sub panel came with a 100a main.
There will be a part trois. I'm tired.
 
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FullySprinklered

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Part III.
Off the top of my head, here's some random notes.
The neutrals and ground wires are attached willy-nilly to the busses on either side of the breakers. The 4/0 grounding cable is attached to the bus on the left side and the bare copper is attached to the bus on the right side. The bus on the left is isolated from the box and could have met more modern standards of separating the neutrals and the grounds, but this was thirty years ago.
As far as I could tell, all the breakers in the panel were Federal Pacific, except one. The GFCI 20a for the Jacuzzi was a Challenger.
The small one inch double pole breaker will span both power feeds if you space the stack down with a 1/2in space saver. This 30a feeds the clothes dryer.
The 100a breaker is canted outward in order to clear the neutral bus, and the cable is fed into the connections at a 60 degree angle instead of straight in as in most breakers.
The crawlspace was paved with concrete and was very clean, though rough on the knees. On the downside, you have to belly-crawl under the deck through 40 feet of mud to get to it.
Next time I see a Federal Pacific panel, I'll probably pass.
 

DonL

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That panel should have been pulled out and replaced, Instead of being Afro Engineered.

Good Luck.

Happy Holidays.
 

DonL

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Send me a check for 3500 dollars and I'll take care of it.

A new panel should not cost that much. Most electricians will replace a FP panel when they see one, Many had recalls, because they are not safe.

It is your project. Good that it worked out for you.

As long as the Inspector Passed it, Then all is good.
 

Speedy Petey

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Most electricians will replace a FP panel when they see one,
I think you mean most will replace them when they are paid to. Unless you know of electricians that do panel changes as charity work on a regular basis.


Many had recalls, because they are not safe.
Do you have a link to any of these many recalls? I don't know of any.
 

DonL

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I think you mean most will replace them when they are paid to. Unless you know of electricians that do panel changes as charity work on a regular basis.


Do you have a link to any of these many recalls? I don't know of any.


Yes they will want to be paid, What are you smoking ?

If you are in the business you should know about the problems they have.

Share your smoke, do not blow it.
 
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