F&W Pump "Bites the Bullet" - DEAL OR NO DEAL - Current Draw

[TVL]

Well, my F&W 1 hp submersible pump motor has died after only 6 years. Short to ground!

Pump end is a F&W WITH a Franklin motor.

F&W now uses their own pump motor as well as pump end, BUT it is about double the price of an Franklin pump. It appears franklin now makes their own motor as well as pump end.

Would it be advisable to purchase a new F&W or take a chance with Franklin. OR, is it take a chance with any of the pump makers at this point?????

 

[TVL]

I just come across an F&W 4F10S10301 on eBay (the exact same pump I'm currently using). It is brand new in the box and has never been opened. It is supposedly old stock from a store that is going out of business. They are asking $499 or best price. The only downside, as far as I'm concerned, is the date code stamped on the box is DEC of 2006.

Therefore, it has been sitting for about 13 years! Is this something of concern for a submersible pump OR that shouldn't affect its operation??

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

It is probably still a good pump, but after 13 years you need to check the water level in the motor before installing. If any of the water leaked or evaporated out of the motor it won't last long.

Seven years is the average life of a submersible. I would want to know what caused the first pump to fail so it wouldn't happen again. Usually the seven year life is because that is how many on/off cycles are built into the motor. The more the pump cycles on and off the shorter time it will last.

F&W is a good pump, but their motor hasn't been on the market long enough to tell if it is any good or not. Franklin makes a good motor but they cheapened up their pump ends. A Franklin motor on an F&W or Grundfos pump is my favorite, but you will probably have to purchase them separately and put it together, which isn't a hard job.

 

[TVL]

Thanks Valveman!

1- this pump is primarily used for an irrigation system. The system is designed to never allow the pump to cycle off once it cuts on. I do occasionally use the well for other outdoor activities (such as washing the auto), and it would naturally be cycling some during this time. I have a 62 gallon tank.

2- How do you check and/or add water to a pump motor?

 

[TVL]

OK, the motor on my submersible pump was the culprit. Each of the motor leads were reading approximately 300K ohms to the ground lead. I replaced the F&W pump with another F&W pump (date code April 2019) and all is well.

As mentioned above, I have also come across a new F&W pump that has a 2006 date code. It is the exact same model as the one I'm now using and it's in the box and has never been opened. The owner is willing to take $285 and that also includes shipping to me. What do you folks think? Should I go for it OR is it probable best I let it slide???

It would possibly make a good spare if you experts don't think it is too old??? If you folks would be concerned about its age, then I'm sure I should be as well!

Side Note: the old F&W pump had a Franklin motor and it pulled 9 amps while the irrigation system was running. I have several checks over the past 6 years and 9 amps was the reading I got each time. The new F&W pump has a F&W motor. Today, I took my first amperage measurement and the reading was 10.1 amps - 1 HP motor just like the old one! Is this something of concern?

As an observation: the new F&W pump with F&W motor, is producing an additional 3 PSI on each irrigation zone. Where a zone used to run at 48 PSI consistently with the old 1HP pump, it is now running at 51 PSI. (??) The old and new pump are the exact same model number ……. only difference is the new pump has the F&W motor where the old pump had a Franklin motor.

 

[Valveman]

Since the irrigation was set up to not cycle the pump, I would be especially concerned why the pump/motor failed? It could be you have a top feeding well and a flow inducer would make the motor last 30 years like it should. It could have also just been a bad motor from the start. I would want to do an autopsy on the motor, which isn't hard.

I think the old pump maybe even better than the new ones. I am sure there are other ways, but I fill the motor with water from the bottom after removing the bottom end cap and diaphragm.

 

[TVL]

Thanks Valveman!

What is weird about the pump motor, or at least weird to me, is that the 3 motor leads have the correct resistance when measured against each other. However, when reading the red, yellow OR black lead to the ground lead I initially get a resistant value of approximately 260K ohms. Leaving the wires connected to the meter, the resistant values begin to climb …………… settling out at approximately 550K after roughly 1 to 2 minutes.

Before pulling the pump, it would run briefly (5 seconds or so) before shutting itself off. The 15 amp breaker NEVER tripped! I wondering if water somehow got into the motor ????

The last amperage check showed that the motor was pulling approximately 20 + amps before shutting itself off. The pump is in a 4 inch sand well.

 

[Valveman]

I wondering if water somehow got into the motor ????

Those motors are filled with water at the factory. They are water lubricated motors. The windings are encased in epoxy to insulate them from the water. It is called a canned stator. One the epoxy encased canned stator gets hot and swells, it grabs the rotor and keeps the motor from starting. When those motors get hot enough to swell the canned stator there is no fixing them, they just need to be replaced.

 

[TVL]

Once the epoxy encased canned stator gets hot and swells, it grabs the rotor and keeps the motor from starting.

I'm thinking I will investigate a little further and TRY to determine what happened to the old motor. For the time being, I will say that I have removed the pump end from the motor and the motor shaft turns will very little effort. Because of this, I'm thinking the stator hasn't swelled as you had mentioned sometimes occurs.

A direct short from any one of the windings to ground would have convinced me the motor simply failed in a somewhat normal fashion. But, why am I reading roughly 260K ohms from any one of the 3 motor leads to the ground lead and then the resistance continues to rise for another minute or so before leveling out at approximately 550K ohms. I'm thinking this motor died in an unusual way. It seems I had read a while back that a pump motor that has overheated will have a discolored casing. The pump end and motor end all looked about as good as the day it was dropped in the well - 6 years ago! No discoloration whatsoever - all of the stainless was nice and shiny.

 

[Reach4]

More than 100K to ground is considered OK.
I was mistaken. See #15 below.

I still don't think some leakage at the rate you see would cause your symptoms. Your symptoms are that the pump pumped water for several seconds, drawing high current. Then the pump cut off without tripping the circuit breaker. You replaced the control box, and that did not fix the problem.

 

[Valveman]

Motor dies from a mechanical failure caused by a lack of flow, the shaft stick up will be low and the motor will have rainbow colors. Motor dies from an electrical failure the shaft height is ok and the motor will spin but the winding is compromised. Any short to ground is not good. However, I have seen motors run for years even when showing a short to ground.

 

[TVL]

Thanks Reach and Valveman!

1- More than 100K ohms between motor leads and ground may be considered OK, but for my motor it appeared to be an issue. As a matter of fact, I had checked the leads at the TOP of the well back in May of this year and each motor lead to ground read infinity at that time!

2- The motor was clean and shiny as mentioned ………….. no rainbow coloring at all. It does appear the winding has been compromised. I'm going to dissect the motor and hopefully I will be able to see something as I would like to know what happened.

I will post any finding along with photos. Thanks again!
_________________________________________________________________

If interested. here is a post I had back in 2016: Refer to post #1 and then #20
I don't think this had anything to do with my present pump failure, but it does show I had infinity from each motor lead to ground from that point on. The resistance values I posted above were with the splices removed and reading ONLY the motor leads themselves!
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/best-splice-kit.67296/#post-500353

 

[Valveman]

When you test at the top of the well and get a short, cut the wires when you pull the pump and testing again you get less or no short, the wire is what is shorted.

 

[TVL]

When you test at the top of the well and get a short, cut the wires when you pull the pump and testing again you get less or no short, the wire is what is shorted.

Valveman,

The resistance readings I listed in post #9 were taken directly from the motor leads while the motor sat on the workbench in my shop. The resistance readings were the same with or without the well drop wire connected. While the pump motor windings don't have a direct short to ground, there is enough of a short to cause operating issues. The newly installed pump has resolved all of my well issues. So, the old pump was the issue ………………… I'm just trying to understand what is wrong with the motor (curious minds want to know). Hopefully, dissecting will reveal more!

 

[Reach4]

1- More than 100K ohms between motor leads and ground may be considered OK, but for my motor it appeared to be an issue. As a matter of fact, I had checked the leads at the TOP of the well back in May of this year and each motor lead to ground read infinity at that time!

I was wrong. The Franklin AIM manual shows much higher numbers than I had thought I remembered.

 

[Valveman]

Check ohms between all three legs. You may have had a short between two coils.

 

[TVL]

I disassembled the motor today (9/27/2019)
1) Photos of motor before beginning the process - other than the slightly small area of rust below the wiring, the motor looked as good as the day it was installed:



2) Armature removed in this photo- possibly the tolerances weren't quite correct? The armature did turn freely before tearing it down - no binding whatsoever:


3) Thin layer of aluminum "covering" or whatever flaking off/broken loose from inside the winding assembly:


4) Can see where I used a screwdriver to push back some of the winding "covering" where it was initially broken loose, BUT completely flat before I started prying:


A) Before I began pushing back any of the winding "covering", the resistance readings were as follows:
Black to Yellow Wires = 2.8 ohms
Black to Red Wires = 14.0 ohms
Yellow to Red Wires = 11.5 ohms
Ground wire to any one of the motor leads = Approximately 500K ohms

B) Once I took the time to completely remove all of the aluminum winding "covering", the resistance readings were then as follows:

Black to Yellow Wires = 2.8 ohms
Black to Red Wires = 14.0 ohms
Yellow to Red Wires = 11.5 ohms
Ground wire to any one of the motor leads = OL with Fluke meter OR greater than 200 Mega Ohm with Biddle Megger

The following photo shows the metal aluminum "covering" removed from inside the winding assembly. It can be clearly seen that water had penetrated part of the winding surfaces. Where the "covering" still made good contact, the windings look clean and dry - the other winding surfaces have a dirty black residue - just like the dirty water that was released from inside the pump once I broke it open!


What possibly caused this? My previous two pumps have lasted between 12 to 15 years. This pump only lasted 6 years. A factory defect????​

 

[Valveman]

There is not radial bearing in the bottom of a pump. Once the radial bearing in the top of the motor wears it will let the rotor rub of the inside covering to the windings and you have a short. That is what usually happens when a motor is a little low on water when it is installed.

 

[TVL]

There is not radial bearing in the bottom of a pump. Once the radial bearing in the top of the motor wears it will let the rotor rub of the inside covering to the windings and you have a short. That is what usually happens when a motor is a little low on water when it is installed.

Thanks so very much Valveman!

So, based on the photos I provided, do you feel this is what likely occurred with this particular pump motor? I still have the old pump parts - is this something I can easily check to see if the bearing truly was the culprit. Remember this pump was only 6 years old!

EDIT: I went and checked to see if I could tell if the upper radial bearing you had mentioned in your post was worn. There is NO upper OR lower radial bearing. The end caps simply have a sleeve for the shaft to slide through. I guess they're making things much cheaper these days!

Is there possibly another reason something like this would occur? I'm just trying to make sure I do anything and everything possible to eliminate this from occurring again!

Thanks!

 

[Valveman]

Yes the upper "bearing" is just a sleeve or bushing. Which is why it is important to keep the pump/motor cool and not have any grit in the water. If the shaft has any play side to side, it lets the rotor bump into the windings and wears off the insulation until you can even see the copper. The most common reason for a top bushing to wear is the pump is not perfectly balanced. When the pump shaft starts whipping around it takes out that little bushing in the top of the motor quickly. The eventual electrical failure is caused by the initial mechanical failure.