Extending copper lines under slab

Users who are viewing this thread

Cruiser

Member
Messages
48
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
Anyway, i cut up the slab and it appears that the copper pipes 'bend' without the aid of elbows etc to come out of the slab, am I safe to assume it's soft copper then? If this is so, the next step is flaring apparently. The popular answer from you guys n gals is not to solder and so I'm leaning towards hiring this job out to a plumber as I'm just not comfortable doing something (flaring)for the first time and then having it inaccessible under the slab. The DIY warrior in me is :(

Am I overly worried about making a mess of the flaring? :confused:

Thanks all
 

Ballvalve

General Engineering Contractor
Messages
3,581
Reaction score
45
Points
48
Location
northfork, california
Oops,

I think you misunderstood what I was referring to as absurd! I am 100% for sprinklers and think in agreement with you on that. After re-reading my post, I see why the confusion...

Anyway, the absurd part to me is that the code (NFPA 13D, if I remember correctly) says that you must have sufficient water flow to operate two heads simultaneously. If you can't meet that requirement, you are not allowed to install any sprinklers!? That is what I define as absurd. Even though the statistics are 95% in your favor of the system doing its job in case of fire.

I was told once "break that connection to the sprinklers as your cannot connect an otherwise fine sprinkler system with your puny 5/8 utility meter". I turned the shutoff valve and disconnected a union. The guy signed off the permit and walked away. I had it hooked back up before he reached his car. Apparently, even inspectors shake there head at that one...

Thanks, but likely that your 5/8 meter would run 2 heads anyway. And 13d is even more complicated than what you mentioned. My insurance company offers no reduction with or without sprinklers, so its quite farcical altogether.

As to the flare, a soldered joint is superior to a flare any day. But you can solder over a flared joint, then you have peaceful sleep.
 

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,602
Reaction score
1,041
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
quote;I would silver solder the joint. You might be able to find the old cast brass couplers with deep sockets that had a hole for filling near the joint. Last forever.

1. IT is very difficult, if not sometimes impossible, to "silver solder" a brass fitting, and if you did it would be so weak that it could fall apart in your hands.
2. The first time you solder a joint under the floor and it pulls apart because of expansion and contraction, you will know WHY you should not do it, EVEN IF it were permitted by the codes.
3.HE will NOT have "rigi/hard" copper under the floor, and he CANNOT use hard copper for the extensions, because there would be NO WAY to bring it out of the floor, unless he used additional fittings under the floor, which would just compound his problems, so that comment is completely unnecessary.

2nd quote; As to the flare, a soldered joint is superior to a flare any day. But you can solder over a flared joint,

Now THAT is the most assinine statement I have seen in a long time. A flare is VASTLY superior to a solder joint, In fact, mechanically it is the same as if the tubing was a continuous piece with NO way for it to come apart. And I cannot imagine HOW you would solder over a flare joint, even if you wanted to.
 
Last edited:

Ballvalve

General Engineering Contractor
Messages
3,581
Reaction score
45
Points
48
Location
northfork, california
Those old cast brass/copper alloy fittings were absolutley bomb proof and I have a few left for such situations. Of course it holds, just as much as copper into a sweat valve or shower valve.

Flare fittings are pretty much rare these days. FWIW, one could flux up a flare fitting with a pre tinned flux and end up with double indemnity.

Since this is not a nuclear power plant, seems a deep coupler and a good solder is plenty.

Have an excavator runing 4500PSI through a mile of tubes and hoses. They use flat face o-ring seals, the vibration and shock is intense, the heat incredible, and never had a joint leak. That would be a good fitting for copper pipe.
 

Cruiser

Member
Messages
48
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
op again here,

I had a plumber come out and said he's not interested in joining anything under the slab and if he were to do it, it would be a solder.He did offer to re-pipe the house for 5k though. I went to two old-time plumbers supply houses nearby and they both laughed at the idea of a flare fitting and told me to get her good n clean and solder her and get on with my life. My answer to that was I'm remodeling a 2300sq ft house by myself, what life?

Anyhow though I'd share this and hope someone gets a laugh. As for me, the wife and kiddo... we're getting used to side stepping the hole in the slab and my daughter now calls it Ernie!
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
The issue comes down to what is approved by code...code is the MINIMUM required, and if not met, can give you hassles with liability down the road. Certainly, some things not up to code (and the code changes based on experience and new product availability) continue to work, but the code is designed for those 'what if' situations, that may never occur while keeping everything working properly. Plain solder joints under a slab is not an approved method of joining pipe. Take it or leave it, it's your house.
 

Ballvalve

General Engineering Contractor
Messages
3,581
Reaction score
45
Points
48
Location
northfork, california
Solder it and get on with your life as advised. Then encapsulate it in a pint of epoxy. Sleep easy. Slip your bicycle innertube over it , clamp it on before the joint and run it to daylight. Cement over. Or plaster of paris, easy to break out if an earthquake breaks the pipe.
 

Cruiser

Member
Messages
48
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
Jadnashua,

I found the code reference to joining copper underground and it calls for brazing and the use of wrought copper fittings ref.609.3.2 There's no mention of flare fittings or soldering, so I guess I gotta find a plumber who'll come and braze 4 pipes for me.
 

Ballvalve

General Engineering Contractor
Messages
3,581
Reaction score
45
Points
48
Location
northfork, california
Sounds like something i said. But you can silver solder it yourself and have as good of a joint. Call a welder. Most plumbers dont know about brazing.
 

Cruiser

Member
Messages
48
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
Well I called two more plumbers they are not interested in coming out to braze the pipes for me :( I'll keep trying to get them brazed but can't wait forever. Flare fittings are against code for joining copper under slab here and the only option given is to braze them.
However if I cant get them brazed then I gotta do something. I'm left with either using flare fittings (which are hard to find around here) or silver solder. I understand the method of flare fittings but how to silver solder not so much. Do I need a hotter torch than regular solder or is it just the solder itself?

Thanks
 

Ballvalve

General Engineering Contractor
Messages
3,581
Reaction score
45
Points
48
Location
northfork, california
Remember, some silver solders are low temp. And as I said as minute ago, plumbers dont braze - mobile welders DO. All over your phone book.

There are more braze alloys than cabinet knobs at the big box store. And a lot of dopes that think brazing has only to do with steaks on the grill. Its an ART, really, and a bad job will leak. I often, for instance, have brazed high tensile steel tubing to ductile iron fittings under 5000PSI pressure, and never had a leak. Amazing and fun process.
 

Cruiser

Member
Messages
48
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
Thanks ballvalve :)

Well I just spoke to a welder of 30 yrs experience and he laughed at the idea of brazing the pipes :) Man-o-man he said just solder it(regular solder he said) and move along! Assuming that I can get my hands on some silver solder that will work using my Mapp that's what I'm gonna do.

I think :confused:
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks