Existing PVC Flange Cracked on Both Sides and Set in Concrete

[sclawrenc]

Hello everyone!

I recently had to plunge a toilet several times and developed a leak at the base. I removed the toilet and found that the existing PVC flange was cracked on both sides and not screwed into the concrete floor. Instead it's just set in the concrete. I also noticed there was a flange spacer on top of this which was only attached the original flange by small screws screwed into the original PVC flange instead of the concrete floor. I believe a wax ring was used between the original PVC flange and the flange spacer. I have attached a picture to show you what I'm working with.

I have some questions on how to proceed.

1. How do I repair the existing flange without pulling it out, cutting it out or cutting up concrete?
2. It is currently mostly level with the tile floor so should I raise it up with a new flange spacer? If so, how would you attach the flange spacer to the concrete floor? Use concrete anchors or Tapcon?
3. Are there any good solutions where I don't have to drill into concrete? I get a little nervous when I think about drilling into my concrete foundation.
4. Once I decide on the path forward, should I use a wax free seal or a normal wax ring?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Reach4]

• How do I repair the existing flange without pulling it out, cutting it out or cutting up concrete?

• It is currently mostly level with the tile floor so should I raise it up with a new flange spacer? If so, how would you attach the flange spacer to the concrete floor? Use concrete anchors or Tapcon?

I would use a repair ring. There are various types.

The picture shows the Superior 21015.
Sioux Chief "Ringer" 886-MR is another possibility. Rather than having ears, the drilling is within the ring area.

Another thing to look at would be the DANCO Model 10672X Hydroseat over wax. I am a little skeptical of its seal to the toilet, since they intend you put the toilet on it with no wax between the Hydroseat and the toilet.

• Are there any good solutions where I don't have to drill into concrete? I get a little nervous when I think about drilling into my concrete foundation.

Whether to use wax or waxless... for a classic toilet, I would tend toward a waxless solution such as Saniseal. Saniseal with the top of the mating surface at about floor level seems to be good for that. Read up on that and the other waxless offerings. Wax is very good, but once you put it down, you should not lift it back up, even a little. So you need your shims in place before the wax. I am not a pro. A pro is more sure to get things down right the first time.

No, you must drill. I would use Tapcons, because they need much a smaller hole than anchor inserts do. Some say they could rust. It seems unlikely to me, but there is a stainless steel version. Pros often like the inserts, and they have the nice big drill to do it.

 

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[sclawrenc]

ld use a repair ring. There are various types.

The picture shows the Superior 21015.
Sioux Chief "Ringer" 886-MR is another possibility. Rather than having ears, the drilling is within the ring area.

Thanks a bunch for your helpful response Reach4. If my existing flange is level with the tile floor, should I use a flange spacer or extender? In other words, should it be level with the floor or about 1/4" above it? I see different opinions on this.

If I use the repair ring or the flange spacer, what should I seal these with to ensure a good seal between it and the original flange?

I like the idea of a waxless seal especially if it will work as good and will allow me to adjust the toilet if I need to.

Thanks again!

 

[Reach4]

If my existing flange is level with the tile floor, should I use a flange spacer or extender? In other words, should it be level with the floor or about 1/4" above it? I see different opinions on this.

While you try to have the flange up when you install a flange, it is not worthwhile to use an extender when flush. Every day people do fine with rings that are even 1/4 inch and more below the surface without having spacers.

If I use the repair ring or the flange spacer, what should I seal these with to ensure a good seal between it and the original flange?

With the repair ring, you need no seal to the ring. The wax or waxless seal will reach down to make contact with the PVC surrounded by the ring. If using a spacer, silicone adhesive or a putty would be good, but you don't want to use a spacer.

 

[sclawrenc]

While you try to have the flange up when you install a flange, it is not worthwhile to use an extender when flush. Every day people do fine with rings that are even 1/4 inch and more below the surface without having spacers.

Okay, that is good info. I will not worry about raising it up above the floor then.

With the repair ring, you need no seal to the ring. The wax or waxless seal will reach down to make contact with the PVC surrounded by the ring.

Okay, I will use a repair ring like the Sioux Chief "Ringer" 886-MR. For some reason, I was thinking that if I put a metal repair ring on top of the existing PVC flange, I would need to use something to seal between them.

Do you prefer any of the waxless seals to the wax ones? One reason I'm skeptical about going with a traditional wax ring is because I have someone living with me now that routinely stops up the toilet, and I heard the waxless seals won't break down due to repeated plunging. If I go wax, do you suggest a jumbo (40% more wax) or just a regular wax ring?

Thanks again so much!!

 

[Terry]

Some waxless seals will work there. You're right at the point where a single wax may work.

 

[sclawrenc]

Some waxless seals will work there. You're right at the point where a single wax may work.

Thank you Terry and Reach4 for your responses. Does it matter which waxless seal I go with or just pick one from one of the retail hardware stores? I'm looking at the ones below.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Korky-Wax-Free-Gasket-Toilet-Wax-Ring/50150240

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Fluidmaster-Better-Than-Wax-Wax-Free-Gasket-Toilet-Ring/50258405

I have the Fluidmaster one at home now, but it says to use the spacer that comes with it if the toilet flange is at floor height or lower; however, when I use the spacer, the toilet sits about 1/2" above the tile all the way around which would require a lot of leveling with plastic shimmies. Even with pressing down a lot, it still sits too high IMO.

Since I have my old toilet removed (probably 1984), should I look to install a new one? If so, which one?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, and your answers are much appreciated.

 

[Terry]

Frankly, I use wax 99% of the time. I have a hard time getting many of the waxless to fit. I have used the Saniseal on flanges below the finished floor before, as they need to compress some.
Any TOTO will work well there, American Standard Cadets, Kohler has some that work well.

 

[Reach4]

I have the Fluidmaster one at home now, but it says to use the spacer that comes with it if the toilet flange is at floor height or lower; however, when I use the spacer, the toilet sits about 1/2" above the tile all the way around which would require a lot of leveling with plastic shimmies. Even with pressing down a lot, it still sits too high IMO.

Sounds to me as if you should not use the spacer. That Fluidmaster seems to put a lot sitting above the ring if you use the Ringer rather than the Superior style.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/best-wax-or-wax-free-toilet-seal.63961/

 

[sclawrenc]

ounds to me as if you should not use the spacer. That Fluidmaster seems to put a lot sitting above the ring if you use the Ringer rather than the Superior style.

Could you please explain what you mean by "put a lot sitting above the ring if you use the Ringer rather than the Superior style"? Are you saying that this might help with not needing the Fluidmaster spacer since the Ringer will cause the flange to be slightly higher? If I use the Superior, I believe this will require me to drill into the tile which I'm afraid to do. The Ringer seems to allow drilling in the standard flange area which I'm more comfortable drilling in.

When I tried with the Fluidmaster using the spacer (as instructions indicated for level flange to floor), all of the pressure was on the ring and the inner rim of the toilet instead of flush around the edges of the toilet. It almost seems like it wasn't tall enough without the spacer and then too tall with the spacer. This might not be a good one to use.

If I do go with wax, I'm worried about the constant plunging that I've had to do lately. The only reason I'm even considering the waxless is because of it supposedly being better than wax for multiple plunges. Maybe if I'm a bit easier on the plunging, it won't break the wax seal.

Thanks again to you both.

 

[Reach4]

Could you please explain what you mean by "put a lot sitting above the ring if you use the Ringer rather than the Superior style"? Are you saying that this might help with not needing the Fluidmaster spacer since the Ringer will cause the flange to be slightly higher?

I am thinking that the fluidmaster might have a hard time squishing down to make good contact with the PVC.

I understand the thing about avoiding drilling thru the tile. You make a very good point. That is much harder than concrete, especially if the tile is porcelain. What I think you would want to do is to put a bead of silicone between the stainless and the PVC. That way, gasses could not seep between the PVC and stainless. So even if your seal did not hit the PVC so well, you would still stop the gas.

I would use regular blue 3/16 Tapcons. Those use a 5/32 drill, and you should make sure you drill deep enough that the screw will not bottom. They usually sell the matching carbide bit next to where they are selling the Tapcons. Blow the dust out before screwing in the screws. I don't know whether I would use 1-3/4 or 2-3/4 long screws.

My comments are not based on experience. I have used Tapcons, but not for installing a toilet flange or ring.

 

[sclawrenc]

Thanks Reach4. Are you saying you don't have experience with the Tapcons or installing toilets? I would think you know quite a bit about this based on your previous posts and time on this forum. Much appreciated either way!!

So based on the picture I provided and what we've discussed so far, you think I would be good with the Ringer sealed with silicone between it and the original PVC flange. Mount the Ringer with a Tapcon 3/16" screws. Then use the Fluidmaster wax free seal. That about sum it up?

Thanks again!

 

[Reach4]

I would think you know quite a bit about this based on your previous posts and time on this forum.

Most of what I have learned is from reading, including this forum.

So based on the picture I provided and what we've discussed so far, you think I would be good with the Ringer sealed with silicone between it and the original PVC flange. Mount the Ringer with a Tapcon 3/16" screws. Then use the Fluidmaster wax free seal. That about sum it up?

That sounds right to me. Is that Fluidmaster wax free seal soft enough to conform? If so, you should be fine. If not, I might try Sani Seal instead.

 

[sclawrenc]

I was able to drill two of the 4 holes in the concrete floor to the correct depth for the Tapcon 2 1/4 inch screws, but the other two just stopped a little short of depth and it didn’t want to drill down anymore. I tired a good bit of pressure with various speeds, but it just seemsed to stop I’m a little concerned on what I might be hitting. Any idea on what I could be hitting that seems to not allow further drilling? I’m drilling into the original flange so I’m right next to the pipe and wouldn’t expect anything to be this close to the pipe. I’ve thought about just using shorter Tapcon fo these two problem holes.

 

[Reach4]

I would use shorter screws.

Could it be that the drill bit was dull? Otherwise, it could be a hard rock in the concrete.

https://www.concretefasteners.com/tips-and-tricks-tapcon has some statements about the hole being 1/2 inch deeper than the screw, but I don't take that as authoritative. http://www.tapcon.com/products/tapcon-pro-installation-kit says 1/4.

 

[sclawrenc]

Thanks and Will do. Any idea why two of the holes drilled fairly easy while the other two just seems to stop? What could I be hitting that close to the drain pipe? Just harder material or could it be metal rebar or something worse.

 

[Reach4]

Not buying the duller drill idea? Then I'm sticking to the hard rocks in the concrete that happen to be at the same depth. Home slabs don't normally have rebar, do they?

 

[sclawrenc]

Not buying the duller drill idea? Then I'm sticking to the hard rocks in the concrete that happen to be at the same depth. Home slabs don't normally have rebar, do they?

Thanks Reach4. I completely missed the rest of your message and only saw use shorter screws. I was hopeful it was a rock but was surprised to find it st two spots around the flange. I don’t think it’s a dull drill bit since I drilled another one after the first hard spot and it drilled fine.

I will go with the idea that I hit a rock at two of the chosen locations and use shorter tapcon screws. I’m also going to use wax versus wax free since the wax free didn’t dry fit well with the ringer flange.

Should I use all 6 holes in the replacement flange or should using 4 out 6 be sufficient?

Thanks again. I was really worried I hit something I shouldn’t but couldn’t realistically think what it could be that close to the drain pipe.

 

[Reach4]

Should I use all 6 holes in the replacement flange or should using 4 out 6 be sufficient?

I would think 4 would be fine. I would hope to use the holes nearest the closet bolts.

Regarding wax, do you follow the bit about getting the shims down before dropping the wax?

 

[sclawrenc]

I would think 4 would be fine. I would hope to use the holes nearest the closet bolts.

Regarding wax, do you follow the bit about getting the shims down before dropping the wax?

Thanks again. Okay I will use 4 then.

Yes but I do have a question regarding the shims. When I dry the fit the toilet, it was sitting very slightly up in the front so my first thought was to put the shim in the front since the toilet bolts down in the back. But I’ve seen in this forum it’s recommended to shim the back. That seems counterintuitive since the bolts are in the back and the toilet would essentially be bolted down against the shims in the back. I should also point out that in order to make the toilet level, I should shim in the back. The side to side stability and level is great so no need to shim on the sides.