DZR brass vs Lead-Free Brass

[tpcolson]

This is more of a philosophical question...years ago there were all the problems with brass fittings (Zurn) failing due to dezincification, so everyone switched to DZR brass. Now everyone's flipping out over lead content, so everyone's switching to lead-free brass, which....contains more than 15% zinc. I don't get it, aren't these non-DZR fitting...just going to fail? I ask because I'm contemplating a well tank replacement, with associated appliances (water softener, UV filter, tankless water heater), and at some point in that set up, there's going to be metal hardware where I can't use EP fittings and transitions. My well water hovers between barely above to barely below (+/- 10%) of the "OK" range for ph and alkalinity. The good news everything will be in an exposed/accessible utility room, but I'm just curious how lead-free brass is an advantage over brass that is "more" resistant to dezincification.

 

[Reach4]

I did some looking around.

I think DRZ brass is a form of lead free brass. Searching says that they may add arsenic (As) to the brass to resist dezincification. Scary sounding. Also maybe antimony (Sb).

http://hghouston.com/resources/tech...ing-of-arsenic-from-dezincification-resistant says the levels are OK, and http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/wells/waterquality/arsenic.html talks about levels and health.

I was pleased to see my iron+sulfur filter removed the As from my well water. The levels were under the safe limit, but having the number then go to below the test sensitivity on the post-filter sample was good to see.

There are some stainless steel F1960 male threaded adapters. For your softener, there are nice corrugated stainless flex connectors and some even have a stainless adapter that will connect to your Fleck 5810 softener system. Of course I don't know if leaching chromium out of stainless won't be tomorrow's story.

There are EP plastic valve systems for home-run valving. Your whole house cartridge filter will be plastic.

You are using F1960 Propex, right? There seems to be more in the way of stainless valves that connect to crimp or clamp PEX connections. You can can use clamp or crimp connections and fittings on the same AquaPEX /PowerPEX/Pex A that you use with F1960 fittings, if you need a valve etc that is not available in F1960 but is available in the other kind of PEX. https://www.pexuniverse.com/content/types-of-pex-fittings has a nice compatibility chart.

My well water hovers between barely above to barely below (+/- 10%) of the "OK" range for ph and alkalinity.

That is pretty wild. Maybe you want to have a different pH measurer to confirm your tests. Are you using the calibration solution each time you use your pH meter? I think that is important.

 

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[tpcolson]

ph goes "slightly higher" after a good, long rain, and "slightly lower" after a few weeks with no rain, same for alkaline (might be the opposite direction), had a geologist and soil scientist explain it to me, but it's all greek. something about "excessively well drained soils" and "very shallow horizon"....

I'm still at the "drinking a beer and staring at the current set up and wishing it was better" phase. Propex seems to be the way I'll go for the rest of the re-pipe. I'm getting mixed opinions on the use of the new "lead free brass", which is all you can buy now (the DZR brass now comes with a warning "not for use with potable water"). I can easily do EP for everything else in the house, it's just the tank tee, tankless water heater valve kit, etc...that seem to only come in brass...well there is 304 or 316 SS, but then there's the problem of getting a good seal on SS threads, versus the softer brass. I looked at the SS 1960 stuff, the only problem there is there is no SS 1960 ball valves (for the over-the-top 3-valve isolation loop for each filter).

From what I can tell, DZR is not lead free, and uponor no longer carries it (instead touting the benefits of their lead free fittings).

I'm just wondering, if the only brass now is lead-free, but zinc-leaching, why is brass even sold if it's going to be a class-action in 10 years (again)?

 

[Reach4]

ph goes "slightly higher" after a good, long rain, and "slightly lower" after a few weeks with no rain, same for alkaline (might be the opposite direction), had a geologist and soil scientist explain it to me, but it's all greek. something about "excessively well drained soils" and "very shallow horizon"....

That would seem to imply a very shallow well, but maybe you are fairly deep but into an underground river of some sort.

The pH numbers I think you are referring to are 6.5 and 8.5.

.that seem to only come in brass...well there is 304 or 316 SS, but then there's the problem of getting a good seal on SS threads, versus the softer brass.

How about 1 inch EP male NPT threads into the SS tank tee? Many tank tees have both 1 inch male and 1.25 female threads, and many others have both 3/4 inch male and 1 inch female threads. When screwing EP MNPT threads into a fitting, I would use both gas-quality PTFE (thicker and higher density) and Rectorseal T plus 2. That is safe for plastic where Rectorseal #5 is not. While I did not use one, a flare nut wrench might be better for tightening the plastic fitting.

I looked at the SS 1960 stuff, the only problem there is there is no SS 1960 ball valves (for the over-the-top 3-valve isolation loop for each filter).

There are some filter housings that have built-in bypass valves. The Pentek Big Blue don't, but maybe there is a good housing that holds the 20x4.5 cartridges that have the bypass. I don't know them offhand. I don't have a filter bypass. I keep extra O-rings, but that is not as good as having the bypass valve. I am only one valve away from having that third valve to bypass my Pentek Big Blue housings. They have little to do now since I got my backwashing filter that precedes the BBs.

That still leaves the main shutoff for after the pressure tank. How about a CPVC ball valve? Those could be used for filter bypassing. I think 1 inch CPVC, CTS or schedule 80, would be as easy or easier to work with than 1 inch PEX. That stuff is not all that flexible, and I expect that using my hand tool for the expansion would be very hard if there was any awkwardness to the position. That said, I am intending to do that if I ever change out my pressure tank; maybe I will reconsider and may even use PVC or CPVC. Maybe you were thinking of buying a nice electric Milwaukee F1960 expansion tool. Those sell well (not cheap) in the used market, but you could resell when done.

 

[tpcolson]

Where does one find 1" Threaded EP fittings that can take Propex on the other end? I can't find them any where...if they're available, that solves a LOT of my problems! If I can get by with stainless steel just for the tank tee, and EP for everything else.......

480 ft well. Ph ranges from 6.9-7.6 ish, alk 80-150-ish.

Looking at a wellxtrol 86 gallon tank, which is 1.25" nipple.

Also considering the Pentek Big Blue with a 1" fitting (everything past the tank will be 1").

Already got the cordless tool (really good deal)....full set of expanders, batteries....

Haven't thought of CVPC, but would rather avoid it.

County (and insurance) will no longer allow PVC inside the house for potable water, regardless of if it works, common sense, etc....(i understand not after the hot water tank, but from the pressure tank to a filter? Come on...). Inspector sees white pipe.....red tag.......no

 

[Reach4]

Ph ranges from 6.9-7.6 ish, alk 80-150-ish.

That is well within the normal range. More in the middle than at the extremes. I would go for brass no problem. I don't think alkalinity is a relevant number for this purpose. I think corrosivity is. My alkalinity is 244, and my water does not attack copper. alkalinity would be useful to predict how much vinegar you would have to add to bring pH down for sanitizing. The calculation is beyond me, so I just add vinegar, and use pH test paper. Even if I could use the calculation, it would need knowledge of total volume of water involved and more.

Where does one find 1" Threaded EP fittings that can take Propex on the other end? I can't find them any where...if they're available, that solves a LOT of my problems! If I can get by with stainless steel just for the tank tee, and EP for everything else.......

I was mistaken. And this in stainless is expensive.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Uponor-Wirsbo-Q8521010-1-ProPEX-Stainless-Steel-Male-Threaded-Adapter

How about using a couple of these? https://www.supplyhouse.com/Mr-PEX-4021010-1-PEX-Crimp-PPSU-Male-Adapter But instead of connecting that end of the pipe with F1960 expansion stuff, either use a clamp ring or even a pair of worm gear hose clamps?

Haven't thought of CVPC, but would rather avoid it.

County (and insurance) will no longer allow PVC inside the house for potable water, regardless of if it works, common sense, etc....(i understand not after the hot water tank, but from the pressure tank to a filter? Come on...). Inspector sees white pipe.....red tag.......no

I think Illinois, maybe uniquely, allows PVC for cold water in a house, oddly enough, but I am not totally confident. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....de-water-distribution-appears-ok-to-me.73428/ I have wondered if the PVC from wells is defacto allowed, at least to a point.

However CPVC is available not only in CTS, it is available as schedule 80 IPS. That is normally gray. Schedule 80 is much heavier. So while schedule 80 PVC might be overkill vs the common cts cpvc, it would add a lot of strength margin.

They use threaded 1 inch and 1-1/4 threaded schedule 80 PVC in wells to dangle pumps 200 ft and more a lot. They use poly to connect from the pitless to the house a lot. I wonder how much non-PEX poly the inspectors allow into the house.

 

[tpcolson]

I may be mis-quoting the well guy that replaced my pitless, and is soon to replace my pump, but he tells me that when he replaces the pump, it will be PVC from the pump to the pitless, and pex(?) from the pitless to the house. I currently have hundreds of feet of the black poly-b all over the place underground.

Nice tip on the https://www.supplyhouse.com/Mr-PEX-4021010-1-PEX-Crimp-PPSU-Male-Adapter!!! So you're saying I could transition that to propex with a regular crimp on that end, and expander on the other end?

I may be further complicating this (unnecessarily) by contemplating (brass?) unions on each side of the tank, filter, and softener.....

 

[Reach4]

So you're saying I could transition that to propex with a regular crimp on that end, and expander on the other end?

Yes.

I have thought of teeing off the incoming water with 1 inch PEX, feed the house through a ball valve with one leg, and running the third leg to the tank tee. Maybe use some pipe clamps on Unistrut.

Have the clamp for the line going to the tank tee be removable. Have a union as part of the tank tee. Then when the union is separated, the length of PEX would have enough flex to be able to pull a failed pressure tank out. Move the leg from the union to the old pressure tank to the new tank. Wrestle the new tank into place. Connect the union. Replace the pipe clamp(s).
Boshart 1-1/4" union tank tees use AS-568-219 O-ring in case you want to replace the O-ring at the same time.


One end of the tank tee would be plugged or would have a drain etc in it.

 

[tpcolson]

this thread has been most enlightening. Thanks Reach4 for all of your suggestions! Undoubtedly there will be more later!

Further complication....(and we've strayed far from the brass DZR philosophical discussion)....what if you were on a shared well, and there was a structure upstream of you (I own the well)? This is where brass vs SS vs Pex fittings becomes relevant......at some point I need to tee off the line to the other house...do that before the tank with a in-ground fitting (what material?), or after the tank with pex? On my bucket list is to bury a new line to the next house, I swear the current one is leaking, the house occupants swear it's not (despite deed language they don't want to "share well maintenance costs")....current is some real john boy and billy pvc->PB glued and hose-clamped underground (I wouldn't call it a tee) mess that is tied in with the hose bib.

 

[Reach4]

Further complication....(and we've strayed far from the brass DZR philosophical discussion)....what if you were on a shared well, and there was a structure upstream of you (I own the well)? This is where brass vs SS vs Pex fittings becomes relevant......at some point I need to tee off the line to the other house...do that before the tank with a in-ground fitting (what material?), or after the tank with pex?

I would figure that you would use poly pipe used for wells. SIDR ASTM D2239 pipr where IPS ID is held and OD varies with rating. I don't know that the material would be so important, but others have experience that I don't. I would think, stainless, brass, or nylon. What is the corrosivity in your water report? The key word in searching out couplers and tees for poly pipe is "insert" I think.

So anyway, a tee in the middle would be more common without the legal problem, I think. Maybe you could use a deep valve, with valve key, to let you isolate the other house near the tee.

As to what the rights and duties are, you hope that the lawyer representing your property originally did well, but you will want to see where you stand. From the standpoint of troubleshooting and control, if there is any problem with the agreement, you could plug the existing pipe at the well. Run a new pipe from the well to your house, and then connect the neighbors after your pressure tank via the existing pipe. That would let you measure their water use, and to cut them off, if you have the right too do so under the agreement if they don't hold up their end. If there is a sharing dispute, and you cannot come to an agreement, you may need to stop DIY. The judge may put no value on your labor in awarding damages.

 

[Jadnashua]

You can get pvc piping that is pressure rated for cold potable water (just don't try to use drainage stuff!). Don't have enough experience to say what works best in what circumstances. If it's like the drainage stuff in expansion/contraction with temp...it would not work well with hot.