Dave Keller
New Member
I need recommendations, pro and cons on this toilet. Anybody?
https://www.dxv.com/en/product/at200-integrated-bidet-smart-toilet-by-dxv
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DVX AT200 Spalet Toilet by American Standard
- Thread starter Dave Keller
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I need recommendations, pro and cons on this toilet. Anybody?
https://www.dxv.com/en/product/at200-integrated-bidet-smart-toilet-by-dxv
Jadnashua
Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
It looks like they're trying to compete with the Toto Neorest models. AS was bought, I think, by another company, and it may be one of their line. Trust Toto more, though.
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It does look very similar to the Neorest.
Fairly compact.
WJcandee
Wise One
Here's the scoop.
Once upon a time, there were two major manufacturers of toilets (and other plumbing fixtures, valves, accessories, etc.) in Japan: Toto and Inax. The Japanese, decades ago, fell in love with high-tech "bidet" toilet seats that use water to clean your rear end, and warm air to dry. Inax was actually the market leader, initially, in this segment when it was small. Inax was, I believe, actually bigger than Toto generally in Japan for porcelain fixtures.
The story of the market for automatic butt-cleaning toilet seats (and then toilets) in Japan is actually a famous case study in the advertising field.
Inax came out with a TV commercial for its bidet seat. It was very technical, oriented towards the device. I can't find it, but it showed the device itself at work, and candidly made it look weird, and made a lot of polite people uncomfortable even talking about the concept. Still, it got some traction.
Understand, of course, that Japan is a very formal and polite society, where women are expected to comport themselves even more politely than men. As an example, women were often embarrassed that someone might hear the sound of pee hitting water when they were urinating. So they would flush and flush and flush the toilet while peeing, wasting lots of water -- to the point that the Government embarked on an education campaign to try to put a stop to this practice. It failed miserably. Toto invented, therefore, the "Sound Princess" (Otohime), which makes a continual sound of rushing water once activated so that women don't have to run actual water to cover the sound of urination.
It became very popular. That's the society we're talking about.
Recognizing this, Toto's ad agency took a different tactic than Inax's when promoting the bidet seat. It used a euphemistic approach, starring a Japanese comedic actress of some note and undeniable femininity and politeness to explain metaphorically why a bidet seat was better than using toilet paper. You don't need to understand Japanese to get the point. Here it is:
149,000 yen, the price in the video, is about $1350 in 1990 dollars. Not a small amount, just for the seat.
The ad was a resounding success. People bought the Washlet in droves. Toto became the dominant bidet seat (and later bidet toilet) manufacturer in Japan, and ultimately the largest bathroom fixture company in the world. Biggest manufacturer of toilets anywhere, all under its own brand.
Inax was still very strong number 2 in Japan. And, frankly, its early seats were more advanced than the Toto ones. But, like VHS vs Betamax, it didn't matter. Toto had won the match.
A decade or more after Toto had expanded its brand all over the world, and had done a good job cracking the US market with its 1.6gpf toilets, which performed better than anybody's, Inax tried to enter the US market and to expand its brand. It struggled. Ultimately, it hired a guy from GE, who followed GE's conglomerate approach and started buying up companies that were a strong brand in their home countries. He formed a new umbrella company, called Lixil, and tossed Inax into it. American Standard was by then owned by a venture capital firm which had exported much manufacturing to Mexico and thrown quality control out the window. Because Inax had failed to crack the American market, Lixil bought American Standard and started immediately applying Inax engineering and quality control to its manufacturing, which turned out to be hard but which has caused a significant improvement over time. They also bought a bunch of familiar brands in construction, generally. Grohe valves in Europe. Some curtain wall manufacturer for high-rises, etc.
So nowadays, AS actually has a big force of Japanese engineering and manufacturing folks influencing it, as well as the influence of great engineers like those at Grohe within its ownership group.
Toto is selling thousands upon thousands of these expensive Neorest bidet toilets in the US each year. Not much compared to their volume of regular toilets, but at that price, it's pretty amazing for this American to contemplate. I am blessed to be able to afford one if I really wanted one, but I can think of a kabillion other things to do with that much money (including save it) that I would rather do.
Eventually, competitors had to take notice of this market. Hence this AS toilet that looks exactly like a Neorest but isn't, and is probably basically an Inax model in Japan that has been relabelled and maybe slightly-adapted for the US. Kohler has a similar one, too.
I can't see any reason why you wouldn't at least consider the Toto Neorest. Among other things, it's here to stay. Finding parts down the line for the other stuff might be challenging. You wouldn't want to end up with a $5000 Duchamp Fountain (i.e. non-functional toilet sculpture).
Once upon a time, there were two major manufacturers of toilets (and other plumbing fixtures, valves, accessories, etc.) in Japan: Toto and Inax. The Japanese, decades ago, fell in love with high-tech "bidet" toilet seats that use water to clean your rear end, and warm air to dry. Inax was actually the market leader, initially, in this segment when it was small. Inax was, I believe, actually bigger than Toto generally in Japan for porcelain fixtures.
The story of the market for automatic butt-cleaning toilet seats (and then toilets) in Japan is actually a famous case study in the advertising field.
Inax came out with a TV commercial for its bidet seat. It was very technical, oriented towards the device. I can't find it, but it showed the device itself at work, and candidly made it look weird, and made a lot of polite people uncomfortable even talking about the concept. Still, it got some traction.
Understand, of course, that Japan is a very formal and polite society, where women are expected to comport themselves even more politely than men. As an example, women were often embarrassed that someone might hear the sound of pee hitting water when they were urinating. So they would flush and flush and flush the toilet while peeing, wasting lots of water -- to the point that the Government embarked on an education campaign to try to put a stop to this practice. It failed miserably. Toto invented, therefore, the "Sound Princess" (Otohime), which makes a continual sound of rushing water once activated so that women don't have to run actual water to cover the sound of urination.
It became very popular. That's the society we're talking about.
Recognizing this, Toto's ad agency took a different tactic than Inax's when promoting the bidet seat. It used a euphemistic approach, starring a Japanese comedic actress of some note and undeniable femininity and politeness to explain metaphorically why a bidet seat was better than using toilet paper. You don't need to understand Japanese to get the point. Here it is:
149,000 yen, the price in the video, is about $1350 in 1990 dollars. Not a small amount, just for the seat.
The ad was a resounding success. People bought the Washlet in droves. Toto became the dominant bidet seat (and later bidet toilet) manufacturer in Japan, and ultimately the largest bathroom fixture company in the world. Biggest manufacturer of toilets anywhere, all under its own brand.
Inax was still very strong number 2 in Japan. And, frankly, its early seats were more advanced than the Toto ones. But, like VHS vs Betamax, it didn't matter. Toto had won the match.
A decade or more after Toto had expanded its brand all over the world, and had done a good job cracking the US market with its 1.6gpf toilets, which performed better than anybody's, Inax tried to enter the US market and to expand its brand. It struggled. Ultimately, it hired a guy from GE, who followed GE's conglomerate approach and started buying up companies that were a strong brand in their home countries. He formed a new umbrella company, called Lixil, and tossed Inax into it. American Standard was by then owned by a venture capital firm which had exported much manufacturing to Mexico and thrown quality control out the window. Because Inax had failed to crack the American market, Lixil bought American Standard and started immediately applying Inax engineering and quality control to its manufacturing, which turned out to be hard but which has caused a significant improvement over time. They also bought a bunch of familiar brands in construction, generally. Grohe valves in Europe. Some curtain wall manufacturer for high-rises, etc.
So nowadays, AS actually has a big force of Japanese engineering and manufacturing folks influencing it, as well as the influence of great engineers like those at Grohe within its ownership group.
Toto is selling thousands upon thousands of these expensive Neorest bidet toilets in the US each year. Not much compared to their volume of regular toilets, but at that price, it's pretty amazing for this American to contemplate. I am blessed to be able to afford one if I really wanted one, but I can think of a kabillion other things to do with that much money (including save it) that I would rather do.
Eventually, competitors had to take notice of this market. Hence this AS toilet that looks exactly like a Neorest but isn't, and is probably basically an Inax model in Japan that has been relabelled and maybe slightly-adapted for the US. Kohler has a similar one, too.
I can't see any reason why you wouldn't at least consider the Toto Neorest. Among other things, it's here to stay. Finding parts down the line for the other stuff might be challenging. You wouldn't want to end up with a $5000 Duchamp Fountain (i.e. non-functional toilet sculpture).
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DXV AT200-LS
Any updates on the DXV Spalet toilet? The background from wjcandee was very informative. I actually purchased several Inax toilets in 2012 (including one of their bidet toilets) right when Inax was making a push into the US market. I was unfamiliar with the Inax brand, but I recall someone telling me that Toto and Inax were the "Mercedes and BMW of bidet toilets in Japan" and that they were comparable in quality. Ten years later and all the toilets are still working, thank goodness. I'm not sure what I'll do if something happens to the bidet toilet.
A few years ago I bought a Toto Neorest toilet. It's surprisingly big. It has a number of features, but I actually prefer the Inax (which incidentally plays music to cover up any embarrassing sounds) as I feel it has better features and a more friendly user interface. I'm about to purchase another bidet toilet, and a salesman recommended the DXV. I initially poo poo'd (pardon the pun!) his suggestion not knowing that AS had links to Inax. I am now much more inclined to go with DXV given the (hopefully?) transfer of technology and expertise from Inax. That said, there are a lot of new players in this market. I'd rather go with a company who's been working with this technology for a while, e.g. Toto, Inax, maybe Kohler? I know Toto is the market leader, but they are incredibly expensive (in an already incredibly expensive luxury niche market) and their toilet designs are big and bulky compared to others. Thoughts and/or recommendations?
A few years ago I bought a Toto Neorest toilet. It's surprisingly big. It has a number of features, but I actually prefer the Inax (which incidentally plays music to cover up any embarrassing sounds) as I feel it has better features and a more friendly user interface. I'm about to purchase another bidet toilet, and a salesman recommended the DXV. I initially poo poo'd (pardon the pun!) his suggestion not knowing that AS had links to Inax. I am now much more inclined to go with DXV given the (hopefully?) transfer of technology and expertise from Inax. That said, there are a lot of new players in this market. I'd rather go with a company who's been working with this technology for a while, e.g. Toto, Inax, maybe Kohler? I know Toto is the market leader, but they are incredibly expensive (in an already incredibly expensive luxury niche market) and their toilet designs are big and bulky compared to others. Thoughts and/or recommendations?
Tuttles Revenge
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A couple commenters have mentioned longevity and reparability. Toto has contracted out factory trained field technicians throughout the US who have all the parts and training to fix their Neorests in house. Those that fall out of areas covered by in home repair can send their top unit back to the factory for refurbishment. Same as their Washlet seats. Toto goes to great lengths to ensure customer care. They continue to manufacture parts for their entire Neorest line and make improvements on those parts.
I've installed a couple of the Kohler Veil units but none of the DXV yet. We had one scheduled for a project, but the homeowner changed their mind to go with the Neorest.
I called Kohler to ask them how they handle repairs and was told that they have the installer do them... From my experience that is usually a big gamble. The insides of the Neorest are pretty tight and complex.. And tho I didn't open the Veil, I'm sure its just as complicated and tight in that space.
I've installed a couple of the Kohler Veil units but none of the DXV yet. We had one scheduled for a project, but the homeowner changed their mind to go with the Neorest.
I called Kohler to ask them how they handle repairs and was told that they have the installer do them... From my experience that is usually a big gamble. The insides of the Neorest are pretty tight and complex.. And tho I didn't open the Veil, I'm sure its just as complicated and tight in that space.
That's a good point about longevity and repairability. I just wish the Neorests weren't so bulky and expensive. I'm glad that there is more competition coming into the market with Axent and Icera along with others, but it's unclear which will stand the test of time.
I did stop by the Kohler showroom to see the Veil and the more expensive Eir. One thing that was very surprising is that if you leave some tissue near the front of the bowl, the Eir won't flush it down, it will just stick to the bowl. I noticed it when I went into the bathroom to see a working Eir, there was some tissue in the bowl left by the previous occupant
The salesperson confirmed this problem, and I tested it out. Neither the partial or full flush would wash it down. Pretty big design flaw for a pricey toilet!Does the Toto Neorest have a better flush than the Kohler Veil or Eir?That's a good point about longevity and repairability. I just wish the Neorests weren't so bulky and expensive. I'm glad that there is more competition coming into the market with Axent and Icera along with others, but it's unclear which will stand the test of time.
I did stop by the Kohler showroom to see the Veil and the more expensive Eir. One thing that was very surprising is that if you leave some tissue near the front of the bowl, the Eir won't flush it down, it will just stick to the bowl. I noticed it when I went into the bathroom to see a working Eir, there was some tissue in the bowl left by the previous occupant
Tuttles Revenge
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I just replaced a Neorest 600 that was installed in 2003, and only because the lid broke at the hinge and Toto has stopped providing in home repair services to that model. Replaced with one of the last Sedona Beige Neorests they have. 1 of 3.
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