Drinking Water Setup UF

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers' started by Capndaft, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. Capndaft

    Capndaft New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2018
    Location:
    Alberta
    Hello everyone!

    I’ve been reading through this forum and found a ton of useful info. Thanks to you all for contributing.

    My municipal water contains chloramine, fluoride, minor contaminants. I’ve been acquiring parts for my undersink water system and had a few questions regarding the correct placement of the filters. My current idea for a setup is as follows:

    3 canisters slimline 10”
    1. 1 micron sediment
    2. 1 micron Matrikx Chloraguard CB
    3. 0.5 micron Matrikx PB1 CB

    Inline on top of 3 canister bracket
    4. 0.02 micron hollow fibre UF membrane

    2 canisters slimline 10”
    5. Aries alumina fluoride filter
    6. Aries KDF55/GAC filter


    Should the KDF/GAC filter be in position 2 before the carbon blocks?

    Should the fluoride filter be before of after UF?

    Would a carbon block in position 6 be better then KDF/GAC?

    Should I run all filters first and have the UF last before the faucet?

    Is there a better setup using different filters that anyone recommends?

    Just looking to you all for some guidance. I’ve read a ton but I couldn’t find many answers about this. Thank you in advance!
     
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    I'll move this to the softener forum where you may get more help.
     
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  4. Capndaft

    Capndaft New Member

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    Thanks!
     
  5. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Install an Ro. Much simpler, cheaper, more effective. You are designing this like an engineer would.

    Your design sounds like you have been reading too much information from online. Check out this link, this is for the Freshpoint RO from Pentair, this is an expensive premium grade Ultra high efficiency NSF listed RO. Quick change, sanitary and compact. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/190-191

    While most RO systems will work, many companies source the cheapest junk from overseas and the failure rates are impressive. Stay away from the online companies pushing cheap RO's. Even most of the "MADE IN USA" ro systems have almost no parts made in the USA. Most are just boxed in the USA. Not very honest.
     
  6. Capndaft

    Capndaft New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2018
    Location:
    Alberta
    Thank you for the reply. That looks like a great unit. It’s hard to find NSF listed equipment. How could I utilize that unit with the concerns addressed below?

    There are a few reasons I didn’t select RO filtration and the setup I listed;

    1. I wanted to keep the minerals in my water and UF does that. I have read that RO with remineralization isn’t as good as just keeping the minerals in the first place. Plus RO waste water is usually 3:1 vs no waste with UF

    2. I wanted to remove fluoride from the water. The activated alumina filter does that and is followed by the KDF/GAC for final polishing and to make sure no metals get through.

    3. I wanted to remove chlorine from the water. Membranes can’t do this, so I selected a catalytic carbon block. I realize that RO system would do this with a carbon block.

    4. I wanted to go direct to faucet without needing a tank. RO produces water slowly. The tank imparts a taste on the water and is usually why the units have a last stage GAC cartridge.

    Thoughts?
     
  7. Capndaft

    Capndaft New Member

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    Alberta
    Also,

    Where can you purchase that system online? I don’t see it listed. A few sites have it but show the price as zero.
     
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    1. I wanted to keep the minerals in my water and UF does that. I have read that RO with remineralization isn’t as good as just keeping the minerals in the first place. Marketing. Consider rain water or snowmelt. Is this bad for you? It is basically distilled water. now if you were in a third world country and your diet consisted of a single bowl of non enriched rice a day,, you may have a point about the minerals. In reality, are the few trace amounts of calcium or magnesium really gong to make a difference in your diet. ignore anything you read online about this topic it is pure marketing garbage. Plus RO waste water is usually 3:1 vs no waste with UF. UF has waste, you are supposed to rinse the membrane regularly. The GRO membrane has a far lower waste ration than most RO's and it is not marketing hype. The membrane was specifically designed for this high efficiency. With your low hardness I suspect the membrane should last many years. Traditional RO's have a real world ratio of 4:1 up to 8:1 depending on many factors. The GRO has a 1:1 to 2:1 ratio, this is a very wide ratio but this is the nature of RO. It really depends on many factors.

    2. I wanted to remove fluoride from the water. The activated alumina filter does that and is followed by the KDF/GAC for final polishing and to make sure no metals get through. RO is far more effective than those filters. AA only works in that application at a flow rate of about 1/10th of a GPM, not exactly convenient. KDF need considerable contact time and quantities as well to be effective. A drop in cartridge flowing at 1 GPM is not that.

    Here are just some of the reduction numbers of a high end RO.

    Chlorine Taste and Order 2.0 mg/L ± 10% ≥50% 95.9% Standard 53
    Cysts* Minimum 50,000/L 99.95% 99.99%
    Atrazine 0.009 mg/L ± 10% 0.003 mg/L 93.7%
    Lead (pH 6.5) 0.15 mg/L ± 10% 0.010 mg/L 99.9%
    Lead (pH 8.5) 0.15 mg/L ± 10% 0.010 mg/L 99.6%
    Lindane 0.002 mg/L ± 10% 0.0002 mg/L 97.4% Standard 58
    Total Dissolved Solids 750 ± 40 mg/L 187 mg/L 96.3%
    Pentavalent Arsenic 0.050 mg/L ± 10% 0.010 mg/L 88.0%
    Fluoride 8.0 mg/L ± 10% 1.5 mg/L 93.6%
    Cysts* Minimum 50,000/mL 99.95% 99.99%
    Turbidity 11 mg/L ± 1 NTU 0.5 NTU >99.1%
    Lead 0.15 mg/L ± 10% 0.010 mg/L 98.6%
    Selenium 0.10 mg/L ± 10% 0.05 mg/L 97.9%
    Copper 3.0 mg/L ± 10% 1.3 mg/L 98.5%
    Cadmium 0.03 mg/L ± 10% 0.005 mg/L 99.1%
    Hexavalant Chromium 0.3 mg/L ± 10% 0.1 mg/L 96.4%
    Trivalent Chromium 0.3 mg/L ± 10% 0.1 mg/L 98.2%
    Radium 226/228 25 pCi/L ± 10% 5 pCi/L 80.0%
    Barium 10.0 mg/L ± 10% 2.0 mg/L 96.3%


    3. I wanted to remove chlorine from the water. Membranes can’t do this, so I selected a catalytic carbon block. I realize that RO system would do this with a carbon block. Since an RO flows the water through the carbon block at a flow rate of about 300 ml/min, the contact time is exceptional compared to UF. The Freshpoint uses multiple carbon blocks to get the more difficult certifications.

    4. I wanted to go direct to faucet without needing a tank. RO produces water slowly. The tank imparts a taste on the water and is usually why the units have a last stage GAC cartridge. Stop reading marketing literature online. The old saying "I read it online so it must be true" is meant to be sarcastic, not a statement of fact. Tanks manufactured in the 80's did impart taste to the water. With modern techniques (developed in the late 80's and perfected in the early 90's) the tanks no longer impart flavors, tastes or impurities to the water. We still use a post carbon filter since that is the way customer expect it to be done. If you look at the RO feeding my house, you will notice that it is a single stage 500 GPD RO with a permeate pump feeding a 20+ gallon RO storage tank. No pre or post filtration other than my whole house Catalytic Carbon tank and Softener. Taste and quality are excellent. We manufacture a lot UF systems but in general these are for marketing purposes rather than functionality. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/194-195

    http://waterpurification.pentair.com/en-US/product/freshpoint-ro/gro-475b-gro-475m-4-stage/

    Hope this helps.

    my unit Large e-mail view.jpg
     
  9. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
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    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The freshpoint is not intended for online sales. Too many companies that would sell it and disappear leaving no maintenance and too many problems. Check with you local companies. Unfortunately the online resellers try to sell equipment at pennies above cost then try to ditch any service, installation, problems etc on to the manufacturer. There are many other high end RO's available. Unfortunately it is hard to tell which ones are good and which ones are garbage. If you buy from a local guy they take on the burden of liability. Leaks are very expensive!
     
  10. Capndaft

    Capndaft New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2018
    Location:
    Alberta
    Hi Dittohead,

    This helps a lot. I really appreciate your input. It’s hard to find any real information like you said. I’m new at this and am trying to learn how to get the best water for my family.

    I will return everything I bought. This system looks like a really good one. I live in Canada and I’m not sure there are any suppliers around me that sell or service this system.

    I have no problem installing it on my own. What breaks down commonly?

    Any pointers on where to look for purchasing?

    How long do the filters usually last?

    Does RO filter out pharmaceuticals and endocrine disrupters?

    Thanks
     
  11. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  12. Capndaft

    Capndaft New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2018
    Location:
    Alberta
    So with those links you provided...... should I contact impact water systems and ask to purchase the Pentair system?

    Are you with impact water systems?

    4 stage or 5 stage?

    This system would be on a municipal water supply. I contacted my local water provider and they said no heavy metals or VOC or BPA etc. Chlorine @ 0.7ppm and fluoride @ 0.6mg/L is the main reason for filtration.I’m not sure how their systems works and if they filter everything out. Better safe then sorry. They said it’s fine to drink from the tap but it does have a chlorine taste.

    Thanks
     
  13. Capndaft

    Capndaft New Member

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    Sep 16, 2018
    Location:
    Alberta
    I also like omnipure...... but as you said... Pentair is nsf certified which is great.

    Do you happen to know the costs of the Pentair 4-5 stage systems and the omnipure type systems?
     
  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    We don't sell to end users but I can recommend some good companies.

    I will send you a PM.
     
  15. Capndaft

    Capndaft New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2018
    Location:
    Alberta
    Ok great. Thank you.
     
  16. Capndaft

    Capndaft New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2018
    Location:
    Alberta
    I didn’t receive a PM. I’ve never got one on this forum. Just making sure I can actually get them if you already sent it.
     
  17. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    IL
    Click Inbox above.
     
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