Draining Softener and Acid Neutralizer to Outside

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Chris Joseph

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HI.. and thanks in advance for any help. I want to drain the backwash from my WaterSoftener and Acid Neutralizer to the out side of my house. I have a underground drain that will accept the backwash and take it down a hill away from the house. I read where I should raise the drainage tubes about 12" inside the house to make a "vacuum" of sorts so the water, upon exit, doesn't freeze in winter, and that the tubes should enter the exterior drain in the middle so they don't touch, but empy down the middle, with a "air Gap".

1. Is this a correct method.

2. Can I use a "T" connector and combine both tubes onto one, at the end of the run, prior to leaving the house? In other words, having both Salt (softener) and Calcite (Acid Neutralizer) combine at the end of the run into one tube is safe?

Thanks.
 

ENIGMA-2

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I don't think that a 12" height is needed, as the discharge is under pressure. An air gap is recommended as it's there the prevent back syphon (back into the potable water system should a failure occur).
 

Chris Joseph

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Hi.. and thanks. Do you think the "T" connector to combine is OK, as I'd rather just have one tube exiting the house than both?
 

Bannerman

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As both devices should not be flowing at the same time, one tube would likely be OK but if they are identical in cuft of media, the neutralizer will require the highest flow so the drain tube should be sized to meet its requirements if there is any difference.

That said, it is not recommended to drain outside. While it is unlawful in some locations to discharge directly to the environment, a larger concern is your location as there would be a high risk of freezing within the drain line.

What is the concern with discharging to the sewer or septic system?
 

Reach4

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In other words, having both Salt (softener) and Calcite (Acid Neutralizer) combine at the end of the run into one tube is safe?
Having those two discharge liquids mix together is safe. There is no problem chemical reaction.
 

ENIGMA-2

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As per Bannerman , I would also agree in using the house drain.
For my installation, I dump my discharge into my building drain (through a standpipe) and then into my septic tank.
No problems on doing this. If your main drain is elevated, believe you can usually run vertically 8' or so; per your installation manual.
I should also mention I've had my tank pumped every five years. (Better safe than sorry).
 

Chris Joseph

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Just would like to avoid salt and Calcite going thru the septic. I've read in several articles that it voids any warranty. Plus I have a pump in my septic and fear the salt will speed any eventual deterioration.
 

Mikey

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From: http://extension.missouri.edu/webster/water-softeners-and-septic-tanks.aspx

"UW and the NSF found that the increased sodium in the softened water was actually helpful to the bacterial organisms in the septic tank, and did not hurt the soil's ability to absorb water in a normal absorption field. The volume of softener backwash during regeneration was easily within the limits of what the septic tank could handle. An automatic washer would pose a greater threat to the septic tank than a water softener. The calcium-rich backwash acted similar to gypsum, which is a high-calcium mineral long used to increase the porosity of clay soils."

As for the acid neutralizer backwash, it's basically the same water being passed on to the softener, with perhaps some added solids that were filtered out, so the only real effect on the septic system is added water.

Bottom line: There's no real chemical damage discharging these components to your septic system, but if your system is of marginal capacity, the added water might be a problem. That's easily determined by looking at the three factors: capacity of the system, average discharge absent the backwash, and backwash volumes and frequency.
 

Chris Joseph

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Thanks for the replies. Does that UW link address the pump that is inline? That's my concern. Not so much the septic drain field or tank. Also will using the "T" connector cause any problems as it reduces the ID of the tubing?
 
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ENIGMA-2

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I would imagine that the mound pump was manufacturered from materials highly resistant to an acid environment. Stainless possibly? Anyway, the pump should be designed to withstand much worse chemicals than a weak salt mixture. (There are salts present in all wastewater).
 
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Bannerman

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What is the purpose of the pump? What is the pump made from? (ie: Stainless steel?) Sewage fluids are often fairly corrosive on their own regardless of whether the softener is being discharged to the septic or not.

While there will be some excess sodium as well as chloride being discharged during regeneration, since water softeners operate by ion exchange, much of the brine's initial sodium will be retained by the resin and will be released during normal water use. The regeneration cycle releases the calcium, magnesium and other minerals held by the resin as those minerals are exchanged with the retained sodium while the softener is supplying water to the house.

The later part of the regen or backwash cycle is a fresh water rinse. That rinse would flush away any salt/Calcite remaining in the drain line and pump , so the pump would only be in short contact with salt/Calcite discharged during the regen cycle.

In response to your question of the drain line being restricted due to fittings, you could always increase the drain line diameter to ensure the fittings do not interfere.

The purpose of raising the drain line height within the heated space is to install a vacuum breaker at the highest elevation. A vacuum breaker would allow air to enter after the cycle has completed, so that water will quickly drain by gravity after the VB instead of only trickling out. Even with draining the line quickly, it remains likely that the line could continue to freeze and become blocked.
 
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Chris Joseph

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Thanks for all the help. Regarding the pump... we don't have a sand mound but an enlarged septic field due to a so so perk. The Perk was not bad enough to require a sand mount, but not good enough to have just a regular septic field. So the pump is to pressurize the septic fluid to the field.

As it stands now, the installer put the softener backwash tube into a sump we have in our basement that ejects to a buried 4" line that run out the back yard to a hill. That sump was put there as a "french drain" because we were getting water in our basement at the foot of our bilco unit. I dont want to risk that pump failing and then during a heavy rain our basement flood. That is why I was looking to bypass that but tap into that 4" line. However, I see I can't know because of regulations, and the outside connection doesn't match where I can exit the house.

Now I see where I may be able to go thru the basement floor and come up thru the wall, and into the washing machine's drain line. So I will put it into the septic field if I can manage this.
 

Bannerman

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I dont want to risk that pump failing andthen during a heavy rain our basement flood.
By your description, it seems that your sump pump is a critical piece of equipment. Perhaps you should consider installing a second (redundant) pump on a battery backup power supply (UPS), incase the first pump should fail to function for any reason.

Now I see where I may be able to go thru the basement floor and come up thru the wall, and into the washing machine's drain line. So I will put it into the septic field if I can manage this.
I would expect it to be easier to route the softener and neutralizer drain lines upwards, through the floor joists to the closest drain as opposed to breaking through the basement floor, especially if concrete.

As Enigma previously stated, the drain discharge is under your water system's pressure so the drain will flow uphill to wherever you need it to go (within reason).
 
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ENIGMA-2

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.... The Perk was not bad enough to require a sand mount, but not good enough to have just a regular septic field. So the pump is to pressurize the septic fluid to the field.
That's interesting, I've never seen a system like that. Around here, if there's too much clay, it's either an open ditch (if existing) or mound.

..... I dont want to risk that pump failing and then during a heavy rain our basement flood. That is why I was looking to bypass that but tap into that 4" line.
Don't blame you there, if it's a typical sump pump, they were designed to handle regular water, not brackish. Depending on the quality, it will fail due to corrosion sooner or later.

I think (as it is of a critical necessity) that, like Bannerman brought up, it would be best to at least have a second pump standing by in reserve, for just such an emergency. I've gone through several submerged pumps that eventually leak and short out, usually at a critical time.

..... may be able to go thru the basement floor and come up thru the wall, and into the washing machine's drain line. So I will put it into the septic field if I can manage this.
Instead of tearing up concrete (that would be my last choise), would it be possible to run the softener drain up to the floor joists and then horizontally over to the washer drain? Most of these softener's allow a vertical drain elevation of 8'.

If the washing machine is on the first floor (drain is in the floor joists), any possibility of relocating the softener to the first floor? Would make draining much easier.

If not, it's still doable, but more difficult.
 

Reach4

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If the washing machine is on the first floor (drain is in the floor joists), any possibility of relocating the softener to the first floor? Would make draining much easier.
If the softener is not on the bottom floor, you want to make sure softener plumbing has a vacuum breaker. But then it could also be important, if the check valve fails and if you have a well, even if the softener is in the basement. There has been discussion here.

But yes, you could drain the softener to an upper floor if you have enough water pressure. I am not sure what pressure would be enough to be sure. I expect 40 should be safe, but less might be OK.
 

Smooky

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I did not find their legal definition of a treatment tank but I did find this:
Anaerobic (septic tank) or Aerobic treatment tanks. A wastewater treatment tank system such as an oil and water separator. Does not include an oil catch tank connected to an oil-water separator.

Here is a New Jersey link with their definition of a treatment tank. It is on page 4 in this document:
http://www.nj.gov/dep/dwq/pdf/inspection_guidance.pdf
 

ENIGMA-2

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Pennsilvinia requirements for Water softener backwash
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/025/chapter73/s73.11.html
(c) Liquid wastes, including kitchen and laundry wastes and water softener backwash, shall be discharged to a treatment tank.

Under Pennsylvania regulations, a septic tank is one form of a treatment tank.

The intent of this code is to prevent dumping untreated wastes onto the surface of the ground (includes subsurface drains).

(See the definition of "treatment tank" at the beginning of the chapter).
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/025/chapter73/s73.1.html
 
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