Does softened water always feel slippery when you shower?

Users who are viewing this thread

Brenda_MD

New Member
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Maryland
We have a softener system for our well water. I have not been happy with our water for years because there was always the mineral buildup around faucets, glasses spotted, etc. When we had a plumbing job done recently, I mentioned this to the plumber. He checked the water hardness and found it was registering 20 grains of hardness. All mechanical aspects of the softener system were working. We had him come back and replace the contents in the tank of the softener unit. After completing this, he retested the water and it was showing no grains of hardness. As a result, I was expecting to feel a difference when showering though. There is no slippery feel that I have experienced elsewhere that had soft water. Is this normal? I am not doubting the honesty of his water testing for hardness; I now put my glassware in the dishwasher and they virtually have no spots on them. Before, I always hand washed because of the spotting.
 

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D
Messages
6,088
Reaction score
455
Points
83
Location
Ontario California
Even a few ppm of hardness can negate the "slippery" feeling. Also other minerals in water can also affect this. I would recommend you get a simple soap test kit to determine if your softener is working or a Hach 5B.

1 GPG which is considered "soft" is actually 17.1 ppm of hardness.
 

Brenda_MD

New Member
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Maryland
Even a few ppm of hardness can negate the "slippery" feeling. Also other minerals in water can also affect this. I would recommend you get a simple soap test kit to determine if your softener is working or a Hach 5B.

1 GPG which is considered "soft" is actually 17.1 ppm of hardness.
I looked up the Hach 5B test you suggested and this appears to be what our plumber used. In his initial testing, it took 20 drops of the test solution to change the color of the liquid. After the redo of the tank ingredients, the color changed immediately with one drop. And, actually, I think it may have changed color without adding any drops when he redid it. Do you think I should have the water tested by water testing lab or assume it may be other minerals in the water that would prevent the slippery feel? Is this something I really need to be concerned about, all in all?
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
As a result, I was expecting to feel a difference when showering though. There is no slippery feel that I have experienced elsewhere that had soft water. Is this normal?
  1. If you use body wash instead of classic bar soap, there is usually no slippery feeling once the body wash is rinsed.
  2. If this was fairly soon after the softener was installed, the water heater still had a fair amount of hardness in the tank.
 

Brenda_MD

New Member
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Maryland
  1. If you use body wash instead of classic bar soap, there is usually no slippery feeling once the body wash is rinsed.
  2. If this was fairly soon after the softener was installed, the water heater still had a fair amount of hardness in the tank.
Thanks, however, we use bar soap, not body wash. This change out occurred about three weeks ago, too.
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
If the old resin had not been fully softening the water for some time, it is likely that minerals have accumulated on the internal walls of your home's plumbing and water heater. Soft water will slowly dissolve those minerals back into solution and increase the water's perceived hardness until the minerals are no longer present. Removal of faucet aerators and flushing the plumbing lines may assist to speed up the elimination of loose minerals as will flushing the water heater through the bottom drain valve, but some minerals will likely continue to remain and require some time before they are fully dissolved.

Post some photos of your softener control valve and also indicate the amount of resin contained (should be specified on the recent invoice) as well as the water's hardness quantity, the amount of iron (if any) and the number of home residents. If you know the softener's present settings, indicate those too. We may be able to recommend alternate settings which may provide the results you desire, but some additional info could be required once we see which softener you have.

With regard to having the water tested, it is advisable for anyone operating a private well to have the water tested at least every few years. Municipal water supplies are usually tested numerous times per year to ensure the water feeding many families is safe to consume and is aesthetically pleasing, but with a private well, you are your own municipality.

National labs (Watercheck) is consistently recommended on this forum: http://watercheck.myshopify.com/?aff=5
 
Last edited:

Brenda_MD

New Member
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Maryland
If the old resin had not been fully softening the water for some time, it is likely that minerals have accumulated on the walls of your home's plumbing and water heater. Soft water will slowly dissolve those minerals back into solution and increase the water's apparent hardness until the minerals are no longer present. Removal of faucet aerators and flushing the plumbing lines may assist to speed up the elimination of loose minerals as will flushing the water heater through the bottom drain valve, but some minerals will likely continue to remain and require some time before they are fully dissolved.

Post some photos of your softener control valve and also indicate the amount of resin in the softener (should be specified on your recent invoice) as well as the water's hardness quantity, the amount of iron (if any) and the number of residents. If you know the present settings, indicate those too. We may be able to recommend alternate settings which may provide the results you desire, but some additional info may be required once we see which softener you have.

With regard to having the water tested, it is advisable for anyone operating a private well to have the water tested at least every few years. Municipal water supplies are often tested numerous times per year to ensure the water feeding numerous homes is safe to consume and is aesthetically pleasing, but with a private well, you are your own municipality.

National labs (Watercheck) is consistently recommended on this forum: http://watercheck.myshopify.com/?aff=5
If the old resin had not been fully softening the water for some time, it is likely that minerals have accumulated on the walls of your home's plumbing and water heater. Soft water will slowly dissolve those minerals back into solution and increase the water's apparent hardness until the minerals are no longer present. Removal of faucet aerators and flushing the plumbing lines may assist to speed up the elimination of loose minerals as will flushing the water heater through the bottom drain valve, but some minerals will likely continue to remain and require some time before they are fully dissolved.

Post some photos of your softener control valve and also indicate the amount of resin in the softener (should be specified on your recent invoice) as well as the water's hardness quantity, the amount of iron (if any) and the number of residents. If you know the present settings, indicate those too. We may be able to recommend alternate settings which may provide the results you desire, but some additional info may be required once we see which softener you have.

With regard to having the water tested, it is advisable for anyone operating a private well to have the water tested at least every few years. Municipal water supplies are often tested numerous times per year to ensure the water feeding numerous homes is safe to consume and is aesthetically pleasing, but with a private well, you are your own municipality.

National labs (Watercheck) is consistently recommended on this forum: http://watercheck.myshopify.com/?aff=5

Possibly the residue in the pipes is affecting the results. However, I do notice a marked improvement now with glassware washed in the dishwasher. I do not know how much resin was placed in the tank as it is not specifically noted on the invoice. For sure we have iron in our water, but do not know the exact amount. With an acid neutralizer, our water is still slightly acid, 6.5 ph, but that is to be dealt with later.

Here are two pics of the softener unit, one of the settings and one of the tank for a general idea of the size of the unit.
 

Attachments

  • 20190708_125916.jpg
    20190708_125916.jpg
    65.4 KB · Views: 360
  • 20190708_130023.jpg
    20190708_130023.jpg
    52.8 KB · Views: 362

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
What is the taller tank to the right of the softener? If utilized for removal of iron, then the softener should not need to remove any iron.

Is there a label near the bottom of the softener tank? The tank size is usually indicated as 948 or 1054 which would signify 9" or 10" diameter X 48" or 54" tall. If there is no label, you may need to measure the outer tank circumference and height as the tank dimensions 'usually' relate to the amount of resin contained. I said 'usually' as the 'Full' marking which appears 1/2 way up the tank, appears lower than expected as the amount of resin will normally fill to approx 2/3 of the tank height.

Your control valve is a Fleck 5600 Econominder. There is a removable cover on the back side, held in place by 2 screws. Behind that cover is a gear and cam with the salt setting indicated by an arrow. We will need to know the salt setting to determine if it is appropriate for the capacity setting specified on the front dial which is currently set to 2125 gallons (which I anticipate is incorrect and contributing to your issue).
 
Last edited:

Brenda_MD

New Member
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Maryland
What is the taller tank to the right of the softener? If utilized for removal of iron, then the softener should not need to remove any iron.

Is there a label near the bottom of the softener tank? The tank size is usually indicated as 948 or 1054 which would signify 9" or 10" diameter X 48" or 54" tall. If there is no label, you may need to measure the outer tank circumference and height as the tank dimensions 'usually' relate to the amount of resin contained. I said 'usually' as the 'Full' marking which appears 1/2 way up the tank, appears lower than expected as the amount of resin will normally fill to approx 2/3 of the tank height.

Your control valve is a Fleck 5600 Econominder. Please post a closer photo to make the dial settings easier to read. There is a removable cover on the back side, held in place by 2 screws. Behind that cover is a gear and cam with the salt setting indicated by an arrow. We will need to know the salt setting to determine if it is appropriate for the capacity setting specified on the front dial.

The tank to the right is our acid neutralizer. The size of the tank is 844 and the salt is at 12 lbs.
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
That size tank is appropriate for only 3/4 cuft of resin. With 'Full' written on the side, that may not be the actual amount of resin contained. You may be able to see the resin height by shining a bright light behind the tank while the room is dark.

3/4 cuft has a maximum capacity of 22,500 grains when regenerated with 12 lbs salt. With 20 grains per gallon hardness, that equates to 1,125 gallons maximum including reserve, but the current setting appears to be inappropriately set to 2125 gallons before regeneration is to occur (location of White dot to outer capacity dial X 100).

You indicate there is iron but haven't specified the iron quantity or whether any other iron removal method is currently utilized. With iron removal performed by the softener, even 1,125 gallons will be too much capacity consumed before regeneration occurs since each 1 ppm iron is equivalent to 5 gpg hardness.

For optimal performance and salt efficiency, the usual recommended salt and capacity setting when there is no iron is 8 lbs salt to regenerate 24,000 grains capacity in 1 cuft resin. For 3/4 cuft resin, this converts to 6 lbs for 18,000 grains.

Here are some recommended settings to assist temporarily until a lab test is performed to establish the iron (and manganese?) quantity whereby the settings will need to be modified accordingly.

20 gpg hardness + 1.6 ppm anticipated iron = 28 gpg compensated hardness.

18,ooo grains / 28 gpg = 642 gallons - 1 day usage as reserve.
Anticipating 2 people X 65 gallons per day = 130 gallons usage per day.

642 - 130 = 512 gallons capacity to be programmed on the dial. Pull the clear finger ring on the dial toward you to adjust the setting. The salt setting on the back may be decreased to 6 or 7 lbs.

Since all of the resin's capacity had been exhausted, a manual regeneration cycle will now be needed using at least 15 lbs salt to restore all of the resin's depleted capacity. As 4 gallons water will already be in the brine tank for the 12 lb setting (each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt), then add an additional 1-2 gallons water to the tank using a bucket, wait approx 1.5 hours for additional salt to dissolve, then perform a manual regen cycle, or do so before departing for bed.
 
Last edited:

Brenda_MD

New Member
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Maryland
Bannerman, thanks for the detailed reply. I have shared this with my husband and we will make the changes you suggested. Plan to get the water lab tested in the next week or so to get a full picture of the water condition.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
I looked up the Hach 5B test you suggested and this appears to be what our plumber used. In his initial testing, it took 20 drops of the test solution to change the color of the liquid. After the redo of the tank ingredients, the color changed immediately with one drop. And, actually, I think it may have changed color without adding any drops when he redid it.
I think you should buy that test for your own use. It will be useful in checking for hardness leakage /residual hardness.

Note the hardness a day after regen, and as the day of regen approaches. The Economizer dial shows how many gallons remain before regen. When the dial gets to zero, then regen happens that night. It may be that your softener setup needs adjustment if the regen is happening too late.
 

Brenda_MD

New Member
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Maryland
I think you should buy that test for your own use. It will be useful in checking for hardness leakage /residual hardness.

Note the hardness a day after regen, and as the day of regen approaches. The Economizer dial shows how many gallons remain before regen. When the dial gets to zero, then regen happens that night. It may be that your softener setup needs adjustment if the regen is happening too late.
Thanks for the info!
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
Your white dot appears to be set way high. Here is what I am thinking given the info so far:

ECONOMINDER System info

salt lb/cuft = 8.0 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
cubic ft resin = 0.75 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness = 22.5 ; including estimated 0.5 iron
Comp factor = 1.13 ; High-hardness compensation factor
H compensated = 25.4 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
Capacity of resin = 18.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
Gallons total = 708.8 ; Gallons without considering reserve
Estimated gal/day = 120.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Est days/regen = 5.9 ; presuming days each use reserve capacity

Econominder Settings:
LBS.OF SALT = 6.0 ; Brine cam in back, pounds of salt
White Dot gal x100 = 5.89 ; Pull clear wheel to set

Very similar to Bannerman's number, but he was more pessimistic on the amount of iron.
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Here is what I am thinking given the info so far:
Gallons total = 806.3 ; Gallons without considering reserve
As Brenda stated iron is present but didn't specify an iron quantity, temporary suggested settings were provided that allowed for up to 1.6 ppm of iron. The settings will likely need to be further modified once the actual iron and manganese amounts are identified through a proper lab test.

With the 'Full' line marked where it is on the side of the tank, I suspect the plumber who replaced the resin, simply marked the height of the old resin and then filled the new resin to the same height and did not allow for attrition. As it appears the 'Full' mark is lower than the expected 2/3 of tank height, I suspect there may not be 3/4 cuft of resin in the tank so the suggested settings may not be appropriate.

As it was not specified on her invoice, perhaps Brenda will need to contact the installer to ask about the quantity of resin installed and if he doesn't specify the full 3/4 cuft was actually installed, require that he return to install the appropriate quantity.

With the Econominder controllers, there is no separate reserve setting so the appropriate reserve amount must be manually subtracted prior to setting the gallons capacity dial.

Since the average water consumption rate is between 50 - 75 gallons/person/day, the reserve setting amount is somewhat of a guess but I tend to allow for a higher reserve amount per person when there are fewer people.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,795
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
As Brenda stated iron is present but didn't specify an iron quantity, temporary suggested settings were provided that allowed for up to 1.6 ppm of iron. The settings will likely need to be further modified once the actual iron and manganese amounts are identified through a proper lab test.
I was thinking that Brenda was not emphatic on the iron comment. With over 1 I would think it would have been much higher in her thoughts.

Your "full" comments make good sense.

If Brenda notes that the new settings are not still delivering soft water, it should lead to moving the number by the white dot even lower. She was over 21 x100 originally, and we are both suggesting 5.x numbers. No wonder the water did not feel soft.

Brenda,
  1. what is your brine cam set to?
  2. What does backlighting the tank in a darkened room show for the resin level?
 

Brenda_MD

New Member
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Maryland
I was thinking that Brenda was not emphatic on the iron comment. With over 1 I would think it would have been much higher in her thoughts.

Your "full" comments make good sense.

If Brenda notes that the new settings are not still delivering soft water, it should lead to moving the number by the white dot even lower. She was over 21 x100 originally, and we are both suggesting 5.x numbers. No wonder the water did not feel soft.

Brenda,
  1. what is your brine cam set to?
  2. What does backlighting the tank in a darkened room show for the resin level?
I finally got a response from the plumber on how much resin he put in the tank, which was not exactly helpful. He said he filled it to 1" below the full line which allows for the "fluff" that occurs during regeneration. So maybe this will help more. As noted previously, the size of the tank is 844. From the floor up to the base of the neck on the tank is 44". The full line measures up about 29" from the floor and he filled it one inch lower. However, when I checked the amount in the tank, it is more like 2" below the full line. We briefly discussed the fact that it still did not seem to be softening as I was expecting and that glassware comes out spotted, even with a rinse aid in use. He said other minerals may be affecting the outcome.

On your question re the brine cam setting, it is set to 12 lbs.

There are only two of us in the household. I plan to get the water to a test lab sometime next week, both on water drawn before and after the treatment unit, so we will know the other minerals and amounts that are in the water. We have not yet made changes to the system because of the ongoing discussion on my question. Also, we head out of town tomorrow returning on Monday, so will wait until then to make the suggested changes. Rest assured, I very much want to get this water issue resolved and certainly appreciate everyone's help and support on how to proceed.
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
The full line measures up about 29" from the floor and he filled it one inch lower.
Although the top and bottom domes should not be counted as part of the tank volume, as a rough calculation, 2/3 of 44" is 29". In your photo, even as it does not show the entire tank, the amount of space above the fill line appears to be greater than 1/3 of the tank height.

He said he filled it to 1" below the full line which allows for the "fluff" that occurs during regeneration.
When first adding resin, the resin will already be somewhat 'fluffed' since there will be air introduced between the resin beads. The air will be driven out, and there will be compaction when water is flowing down through the resin.

Resin is purchased by measured volume such as a 1 cuft bag so a measured amount should have been placed into the tank. There was no need to add less to allow for expansion since that is the purpose of the 1/3 empty space (freeboard) in the tank. The resin is intended to expand, lift and redistribute by a planned amount during the Backwash phase of the regeneration cycle. The amount of expansion as controlled by a flow restrictor that limits the water flow rate during Backwash.

On your question re the brine cam setting,
The Brine Cam setting is the salt setting you had already identified is 12 lbs currently but is to be reduced to 6 lbs along with resetting the proper capacity between regen cycles.

I mentioned 6-7 lbs since there is an unidentified amount of iron. Iron will adhere to resin and will eventually accumulate and impair the resin's ability to soften water (iron fouling). Additional salt will help to clean the iron deposits from the resin as will periodic treatments with an acid resin cleaner such as Iron Out or similar. Your current low pH condition will actually assist in cleaning the resin.
 

Brenda_MD

New Member
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Maryland
Although the top and bottom domes should not be counted as part of the tank volume, as a rough calculation, 2/3 of 44" is 29". In your photo, even as it does not show the entire tank, the amount of space above the fill line appears to be greater than 1/3 of the tank height.


When first adding resin, the resin will already be somewhat 'fluffed' since there will be air introduced between the resin beads. The air will be driven out, and there will be compaction when water is flowing down through the resin.

Resin is purchased by measured volume such as a 1 cuft bag so a measured amount should have been placed into the tank. There was no need to add less to allow for expansion since that is the purpose of the 1/3 empty space (freeboard) in the tank. The resin is intended to expand, lift and redistribute by a planned amount during the Backwash phase of the regeneration cycle. The amount of expansion as controlled by a flow restrictor that limits the water flow rate during Backwash.


The Brine Cam setting is the salt setting you had already identified is 12 lbs currently but is to be reduced to 6 lbs along with resetting the proper capacity between regen cycles.

I mentioned 6-7 lbs since there is an unidentified amount of iron. Iron will adhere to resin and will eventually accumulate and impair the resin's ability to soften water (iron fouling). Additional salt will help to clean the iron deposits from the resin as will periodic treatments with an acid resin cleaner such as Iron Out or similar. Your current low pH condition will actually assist in cleaning the resin.
Okay, will reset the salt to 6 lbs. and make the other adjustments you suggested. I am attaching a pic of the full tank, I don't think there is more than 1/3 of space above the fill line. However, it does sound like more resin may need to be added to get it to the fill line. I wish I knew what brand of resin he used, or are they all basically the same?
 

Attachments

  • 20190710_094922.jpg
    20190710_094922.jpg
    49 KB · Views: 367

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Thanks for the full photo. The amount of resin is not usually critical as the recommended settings will not use the resin's entire capacity but since your softener is smaller than usually recommended, especially due to the substantial hardness and a presence of iron, any shortfall will have greater impact.

Without measuring the volume of resin, it would have been reasonable to add 1" above the line since the newly added resin will settle and any air will be driven out.

There are various types of resin including Fine Mesh (not recommended due to higher flow restriction), 8% crosslink (standard) and 10% crosslink (will better tolerate constant chlorine exposure). Some 'cheaper' import resin will have less than 8% crosslinking which is not recommended.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks