Do I need additional cleanouts?

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Mliu

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I'm having some difficulty wrapping my mind around the IPC code requirements for cleanouts. The part that's confusing me is the Exception in IPC 708.1.1:

Exception: Horizontal fixture drain piping serving a non-removable trap shall not be required to have a cleanout for the section of piping between the trap and the vent connection for such trap.​

This is my DWV plan. Only one level. All drain pipes have 1/4" per foot slope.

DWV Plan (cropped).png


FD = Floor Drain
FS = Floor Sink
HS = Hand Sink
MS = Mop Sink

Wye-1 to Wye-4 is 2" PVC.
Wye-4 to Wye-6 is 3" PVC.
Wye-6 to the Building Drain is 4" PVC.

There is an existing cleanout in the service corridor behind my suite. This is where I'm connecting my 4" main horizontal branch drain into the existing 4" cast iron building drain that leads to one of the building's grease interceptors. I'll have the current long-turn cast iron elbow at the bottom of that cleanout replaced with a two-way PVC cleanout tee. Besides that, the only other cleanouts I currently have are the removable SJ p-traps for the two hand sinks, where the 1-1/2" trap adapters can be used as cleanout access ports (per IPC 708.1.5 Exception 1.) These will serve as cleanouts for:
  1. The horizontal branch drain between HS-1 and Wye-1.
  2. The horizontal branch drain between HS-2 and Wye-6.
Based on my understanding of the exception to IPC 708.1.1, I believe the other fixture drains do not require cleanouts.

It would probably be a good idea to add another cleanout (besides the existing cleanout) on the main horizontal branch drain. Since the main branch drain expands in size from 2" to 3" to 4", I think I should add a cleanout upstream of Wye-1 (where the pipe size is 2") since I imagine it would be difficult to push a snake from the downstream cleanout up past the reducing bushings. Based on where my new partition walls will be located, I could add a cleanout on the 2" fixture drain between FD-1 and the vent connection for FD-1.

Advice and comments (on cleanouts or any other aspect of the design) will be greatly appreciated.
 
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Mliu

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The image was reduced quite a bit when uploaded and I found it difficult to read the annotations. So I split the image into two halves.

DWV Plan (a).png
DWV Plan (b).png
 

Sylvan

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CO ideally should be installed every 50 feet, every change of direction great than 45 DEG and at the base of every soil, waste and leader line stack
 

Sylvan

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"There are three kinds of pipe. There's what you have, which is garbage - and you can see where that's gotten you. There's bronze, which is pretty good, unless something goes wrong. And something always goes wrong. Then, there's copper, which is the only pipe I use. It costs money. It costs money because it saves money." <<< WRONG

For drainage and venting there are all types of plastics, there is Galvanized, XH cast iron, No hub cast iron, Service weight cast iron , Yalloy , Copper DWV ( cheap stuff)

Cast iron is great as it can last decades, Galvanized waste and vent were used by the WPA for federal buildings and post offices and is still in great condition

Copper is ok BUT the DWV type is paper thin so Ideally when I did use copper it was type L and DWV brass fittings

Bronze is NOT used for drainage or venting Brass I did see used in mansions built during the 1920's and only up to 2" for the nipples being attached to the P trap and CI to prevent electrolytic action

There is no one material for all plumbing applications although copper can be used for drainage , water supply, heating .

Depending on the water quality, soil conditions which material is best suited


The reason I like cast for waste is the ability to buy long radius fitting (easier to snake) CI is quiet, and is non toxic in a fire such as plastic
systems

 

Sylvan

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By the way Copper "Pipe " is the wrong terminology as K,L,M ,ACR, DWV are all tubing

There is T.P Copper ( threadless pipe ) we cannot thread it but it does have the same outside diameter of "pipe"

The T.P fittings are useful when either Yellow brass or Red brass has to be replaced or a Tee added

We just cut the brass pipe either add a TP x M or F adapter and then we can use copper tubing .

Today I see some copper tubing adapters reamed out so they can be used in lieu of Stanley G Flagg flow fittings which we normally braze
 

Mliu

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"There are three kinds of pipe. There's what you have, which is garbage - and you can see where that's gotten you. There's bronze, which is pretty good, unless something goes wrong. And something always goes wrong. Then, there's copper, which is the only pipe I use. It costs money. It costs money because it saves money." <<< WRONG
That quote in my signature is from a movie. I thought it was funny because it was about plumbing. No need to take it seriously. Besides, the movie character was talking about supply piping, not DWV. It has nothing to do with the content of my posts.
 

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IPC section 708.1.1 exceptions are floor drains and floor sinks. (non-removable traps.)
 

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If that hand wash sink is for a food prep area it needs to be an indirect waste with an air gap.
 

Mliu

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If that hand wash sink is for a food prep area it needs to be an indirect waste with an air gap.
Thank you for your feedback, but I believe that is incorrect.

IPC Section 802 Indirect Wastes

802.1 Where required.

Food-handling equipment, in other than dwelling units, clear-water waste, humidifiers, dishwashing machines and utensils, pots, pans and dishwashing sinks shall discharge through an indirect waste pipe as specified in Sections 802.1.1 through 802.1.8. Fixtures not required to be indirectly connected by this section and the exception to Section 301.6 shall be directly connected to the plumbing system in accordance with Chapter 7.​

802.1.1 Food handling.
Equipment and fixtures utilized for the storage, preparation and handling of food shall discharge through an indirect waste pipe by means of an air gap.​

A hand sink is not utilized for the storage, preparation, or handling of food. In fact, food preparation and ware washing are specifically prohibited in hand sinks.

My jurisdiction is adjudicated under IPC 2015. However, I also checked the UPC.

UPC Chapter 8 Indirect Wastes

801.3 Food and Beverage Handling Establishments.

Establishments engaged in the storage, preparation, selling, serving, processing, or other handling of food and beverage, involving the following equipment that requires drainage shall provide indirect waste piping for refrigerators, refrigeration coils, freezers, walk-in coolers, iceboxes, ice-making machines, steam tables, egg boilers, coffee urns and brewers, hot-and-cold drink dispensers, and similar equipment.

801.3.3 Food-Handling Fixtures
Food-preparation sinks, steam kettles, potato peelers, ice cream dipper wells, and similar equipment shall be indirectly connected to the drainage system by means of an air gap. Bins, sinks, and other equipment having drainage connections and used for the storage or unpackaged ice used for human ingestion, or used in direct contact with ready-to-eat food, shall be indirectly connected to the drainage system by means of an air gap. Each indirect waste pipe from food-handling fixtures or equipment shall be separately piped to the indirect waste reception and shall not combine with other indirect waste pipes.​

Again, no mention of hand sinks (which are ubiquitous in EVERY commercial kitchen). Yet they found it necessary to specifically mention the occasional egg boilers and potato peelers.

And referring to the Code of Colorado Regulations:

Colorado Retail Food Establishment Regulations (6 CCR 1010-2)

5-402.11 Backflow Prevention.
(A) Except as specified in ¶¶ (B), (C), and (D) of this section, a direct connection may not exist between the SEWAGE system and a drain originating from EQUIPMENT in which FOOD, portable EQUIPMENT, or UTENSILS are placed.​

Again no mention of hand sinks within food preparation areas.

What I find interesting is that a strict interpretation of the last sentence of IPC 802.1 would appear to prohibit indirect waste drainage for any hand sinks in commercial kitchens (or anywhere else). But I don't believe that was their intention.
 

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Your probably right but I would check with you department before you install the plumbing. just tryin to help.
 

Mliu

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Your probably right but I would check with you department before you install the plumbing. just tryin to help.
I agree. Everything will be reviewed by the local building dept and health dept before construction. I do appreciate your help! :)
 
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