DIY Water Filter Install Question-System pressure unbalanced

[Ceramicbrad56]

Hi. I recently installed a Fleck 2510SXT greensand filter and noted that the pressure during backwash is too low at the location of the filter to be effective(less than 20 psi ). The system it is installed (in house) has the following from input to output:
1. submersible pump new, 1.5 hp flow rate of > 25 gpm tested by running two sill cocks simultaneously.
1(a). 1" pvc lines in house, 1-1/4" pipe in well.
2.bladder tank(86 gallon ) -(equivalent to a 220 gallon tank) pressure set to 39 psi
3.pressure switch 40/60
4. pressure gauge
5. relief valve(75 psi)
6.60 mesh filter
7.chlorine injection port
8. 120 gallon retention tank(pentair ut-120 set up as a retention tank with vacuum breaker and output on top and no avc assembly)
9. flotec FP7250 120 gallon air over water pressure tank with air volume control for submersible pump installed
10. pressure gauge
11. fleck greensand filter
12. whole house filter(big blue)
13. house water input
OK, the system works, no pump switch chattering or leaks but the main issue is the pressure gauge at #4(above) reads 20 to 30 psi higher than the one at #10(above). So, when the fleck backflushes, the water pressure goes from 60 to 10 psi within 10 minutes, while the pressure gauge #4 still above 40 psi and so pump not start to re-pressurize house. Once the pump does kick in at 39 psi, and pump up pressure to 60 psi(on gauge #4) and turn off, the house pressure will slowly go up to 40 or 50 psi(taking10 minutes or so). So my question is what are my options here? (put the pressure switch at #9-the Flotec?)

 

[Reach4]

I recently installed a Fleck 2510SXT greensand filter and noted that the pressure during backwash is too low at the location of the filter to be effective(less than 20 psi ).

I would think #6 or #7 is what is losing pressure.

Is #7 a non-powered venturi pump pumping bleach solution? If so, see how #10 gauge pressure is when the injector is set to minimum injection, if there is a control. I am wondering if that takes a big bite out of the pressure.

#6 could be a clogged filter, right?

What adds the air?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WorthFlorida]

I'm assuming the filter is the last device of your system. Do you have gauge after the filter on the house side of the system? In your setup how does the filter get its water supply during the backwash cycle? Could it be that a check or bypass valve is preventing pressurized water from entering the tank and your house pressure remains above 40 PSI?

 

[Valveman]

You will always lose pressure through filters. If you are losing 20-30 PSI through the filter, then you need to start with 20-30 PSI more at the pump. I would up the pressure switch to 60/80, put 58 PSI in the bladder tank, and set the pressure relief valve for about 90 PSI. Then the output should only get down to about 30 PSI during backwash. A 1.5HP, 25 GPM pump can only do 60/80 if the water level in the well is 100' or less.

 

[LLigetfa]

Cary must not be understanding that you are not filtering when in backwash mode and the flow restriction is not due to the filter. I don't think upping the pressure switch settings will solve your problem. Most likely you just don't have enough GPM through your system to sustain the backwash. You will need to analyze all the components in the line to determine where and how you might be able to improve the GPM.

I have a similar problem with not having enough GPM for a thorough backwash. My GPM restriction is the micronizer which has the bypass mostly closed to draw more air and to act like a dole valve to keep from bringing up sediment from the well. Upping the pressure would cause it to draw less/no air and at higher pressure, my pump would be too far off the curve where the GPM drops off.

I also have the problem that the 3/4" copper line between the HP tank and the iron filter clogs up with precipitated iron. Unfortunately I located the HP tank too far from the filter. I also have too many elbows in the line and the iron tends to pile up at the elbows. I replace three of the 90 degree elbows with six 45 degree elbows which helps but only to a degree.

I manually purge that line by plugging the AVC discharge port and introduce air into the HP tank with a compressor while I open drain ports one at a time on the line. The first drain port is an outside hose bib so that purges out the first half. Then I close it and open the second that is just before the iron filter which then purges the other half of the line.

After purging the line, I do a manual backwash and I introduce small bursts of air into the water stream at the iron filter. The air/water mixture creates a boiling like action that shakes up the media.

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

I would think #6 or #7 is what is losing pressure.

Is #7 a non-powered venturi pump pumping bleach solution? If so, see how #10 gauge pressure is when the injector is set to minimum injection, if there is a control. I am wondering if that takes a big bite out of the pressure.

#6 could be a clogged filter, right?

What adds the air?

Hi.

Hi. # 7 is a 220V stenner pump 85MHP17(with 15 gal solution tank with small hose going to the 1" inline static mixer.
Injector is currently set to minimum(1) on dial, no effect on #10 pressure.

The static mixer info states: "Replaces a standard PVC tee. Greatly enhances and speeds up chemical reactions by creating turbulence. Comes with 1" female pipe thread." part# ci201 from Pure Water products LLC.

#6 is clean and tested clear.

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

I'm assuming the filter is the last device of your system. Do you have gauge after the filter on the house side of the system? In your setup how does the filter get its water supply during the backwash cycle? Could it be that a check or bypass valve is preventing pressurized water from entering the tank and your house

Hi. Yes, and yes there is a gauge. The Fleck filter gets its supply from tank #9 which then provides water to the whole house filter and the house.. The backflush is sent to drain on a separate line. So, perhaps it would create a low flow condition to the whole house filter during back flush which is not good. Perhaps the Fleck should be moved to between tank #8 and #9. In any case, even the Fleck system in bypass mode, pressure to tank #9 takes about 10 minutes to catch up to pressure at #4. There is no check or bypass valve preventing water entering the house as this was tested at tank #8 which fills rapidly(with input to tank #9 shut off). Then when allowing tank #9 to fill, process is much slower after installing the air volume control on it. Before that we removed the top 1" fitting of the tank to allow air to escape while it filled, then replaced it when tank was nearly full.

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

You will always lose pressure through filters. If you are losing 20-30 PSI through the filter, then you need to start with 20-30 PSI more at the pump. I would up the pressure switch to 60/80, put 58 PSI in the bladder tank, and set the pressure relief valve for about 90 PSI. Then the output should only get down to about 30 PSI during backwash. A 1.5HP, 25 GPM pump can only do 60/80 if the water level in the well is 100' or less.

Yes. I need the filters, but only use 60 and 100 mesh now.When I up the pressure to the system the second 120 gallon tank still takes much longer to fill compared to when I installed the Air volume control valve on tank #9. I think the Air volume control is part of the problem. The pump is at 110'.

 

[Reach4]

So #9 serves as an additional retention/contact tank, since nothing adds air.

So it sounds like LLigetfa's sugestion of clogged piping makes sense. I think you could add some more blowdown valves.

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

Cary must not be understanding that you are not filtering when in backwash mode and the flow restriction is not due to the filter. I don't think upping the pressure switch settings will solve your problem. Most likely you just don't have enough GPM through your system to sustain the backwash. You will need to analyze all the components in the line to determine where and how you might be able to improve the GPM.

I have a similar problem with not having enough GPM for a thorough backwash. My GPM restriction is the micronizer which has the bypass mostly closed to draw more air and to act like a dole valve to keep from bringing up sediment from the well. Upping the pressure would cause it to draw less/no air and at higher pressure, my pump would be too far off the curve where the GPM drops off.

I also have the problem that the 3/4" copper line between the HP tank and the iron filter clogs up with precipitated iron. Unfortunately I located the HP tank too far from the filter. I also have too many elbows in the line and the iron tends to pile up at the elbows. I replace three of the 90 degree elbows with six 45 degree elbows which helps but only to a degree.

I manually purge that line by plugging the AVC discharge port and introduce air into the HP tank with a compressor while I open drain ports one at a time on the line. The first drain port is an outside hose bib so that purges out the first half. Then I close it and open the second that is just before the iron filter which then purges the other half of the line.

After purging the line, I do a manual backwash and I introduce small bursts of air into the water stream at the iron filter. The air/water mixture creates a boiling like action that shakes up the media.

I suppose so. What you are saying (I assume-I am new to this), is during backwash, the Fleck is in a modified"bypass" mode as far as water going to the house. The interesting thing is that I had great pressure with the current system before I installed the Air Volume control on tank #9. I see what you are saying about too many elbows, I removed them from the Fleck and got the flexible stainless quick connects. I hope I do not have to manually purge like you do, but if I cannot resolve it will do so.

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

So #9 serves as an additional retention/contact tank, since nothing adds air.

So it sounds like LLigetfa's sugestion of clogged piping makes sense. I think you could add some more blowdown valves.

Yes. #9 serves as additional retention/contact tank. There are two blow down valves on each tank and I flush them monthly.

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

All is now working. With the help of this forum the pressure is equal across the tanks, from input of water to house to pressure on whole house filter as water enters fixtures. The problem was a 140 mesh filter located between the two 120 gallon tanks that was not taken into account in the above description. After examining the steel mesh, it was found that the filter media was clogged with green sand media from an initial install of the Fleck filter(originally the Fleck was installed before both retention tanks in such as way to cause pressure switch chatter). After removing the 140 mesh filter, the pressure rapidly equalized between the two tanks. Now the back flush is always above 40 psi and so is the pressure coming into the house. Thank you all for your help.

 

[LLigetfa]

When I up the pressure to the system the second 120 gallon tank still takes much longer to fill compared to when I installed the Air volume control valve on tank #9.

Can you post a pic of what is in the line before the HP tank? I think what you call an air volume control is actually a micronizer. The AVC is inside the tank and it serves to let out excess air. The micronizer is before the tank and it serves to add air.

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

Can you post a pic of what is in the line before the HP tank? I think what you call an air volume control is actually a micronizer. The AVC is inside the tank and it serves to let out excess air. The micronizer is before the tank and it serves to add air.

Hi. Yes. The Air volume control is inside the last tank(see pic above) it lets out air. The static inline mixer is before the two retention tanks. Pic of static mixer is above(grey) with other pics..***/(I edited this post because I meant static mixer instead of micronizer/*** so I changed it

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

You will always lose pressure through filters. If you are losing 20-30 PSI through the filter, then you need to start with 20-30 PSI more at the pump. I would up the pressure switch to 60/80, put 58 PSI in the bladder tank, and set the pressure relief valve for about 90 PSI. Then the output should only get down to about 30 PSI during backwash. A 1.5HP, 25 GPM pump can only do 60/80 if the water level in the well is 100' or less.

Valveman:
Good point you made. When I removed the mesh from the between tank filter, the pressure became normal. I am going to leave the mesh filter out for the time being and let the whole house filter take care of it.

 

[LLigetfa]

Pic of micronizer is above(grey) with other pics...

The grey thing is described as an Inline Static Mixer which along with the Stenner pump injects chlorine. Not sure how air gets into the system.

 

[LLigetfa]

When I removed the mesh from the between tank filter, the pressure became normal.

I didn't see any mention of a second filter until later in the thread. Not sure why that would be after the chlorine injection as it would clog from the iron that precipitates in the tank. I mean, that is what the iron filter is there to do.

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

I didn't see any mention of a second filter until later in the thread. Not sure why that would be after the chlorine injection as it would clog from the iron that precipitates in the tank. I mean, that is what the iron filter is there to do.

Hi. Yes the filter was installed before the chlorine injection system to determine its effectiveness prior to more drastic measures. It clogged up only after the Flex green sand was installed upstream of it. It failed in that it never took out the iron in the water(filters used varied from 1000 down to 140 mesh). Only the whole house filter rated at 5 microns and huge in size comparison worked.

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

The grey thing is described as an Inline Static Mixer which along with the Stenner pump injects chlorine. Not sure how air gets into the system.

Hi. See https://www.purewaterproducts.com/chemical-feed-pumps
No micronizer or air injection needed on this system. But that is not to say it would not be beneficial if we/you still have issues.
What I learned(not much) is that I am trying to remove very fine (in solution) iron particles by adding chlorine to solution. What happens is the negative chlorine ions bind with the positive Iron ions and they precipitate out it the large retention tanks(must use blow off to drain bottom of tanks).

 

[Ceramicbrad56]

Can you post a pic of what is in the line before the HP tank? I think what you call an air volume control is actually a micronizer. The AVC is inside the tank and it serves to let out excess air. The micronizer is before the tank and it serves to add air.

Hi. the air volume control lets air out of the tank while it is filling, up to the level that the water level trips off the air flow(water level reaches the float like in a toilet bowl, turning off water). Not sure if this is a micronizer but they did not call it one. I took it out just now because it had a crack in it, now I fill the tank all the way up with water and treat it like a retention tank.