Disturbance Noise Caused by Faulty Water Pipe System (Water Hammer?)

[KC Oh]

Hi Good Day! I am new here and would like to seek expert advice in this forum, for disturbance noises caused by faulty water pipe system.

I am a resident of a public housing area and living in a 5th floor unit, in recent months it has been a loud “knocking” noise intermittently coming from the upper floor and it’s a serious disturbance noise even it happening in the middle of night, my family has been trying to endure but the problem does not seem to go away.

About 3 weeks ago, I had approached an upper floor neighbour for the problem and after a quick discussion, the owner has told me that he is fully aware the noise problem could be caused by the next door neighbour’s faulty water meter, which is the unit directly above my unit and he had advised me to provide a feedback to water department for a remedy action.

I had called water department for enquiries and they did sent a team arrived on-site for assistance. However they team could not carried out further checks for the problem as there were no one at home in upper floor neighbour’s unit and then they had advised me to contact local town council for help, as they explained that the problem root cause could be possible the local area water piping systems structure problem.

I had follow up contacted local town council and their team did a round of checking, interviewed the upper floor neighbour unit owner and claimed that the family members are not aware of such disturbance noises, as these noises are random intermittently occurs, therefore the local town council team needs to further investigate the problem to determine the root cause.

For past few days the knocking noise has been more intensive frequent in the night from around 8.30 pm onward and I started to search google website and I had found some information which describes …..….

{…Knocking noise or sound in water pipes can be due to several reasons, but if there is a ‘knocking’ sound from the water piping, this is known as water hammer. This can be heard when the tap turn off quickly and it could be caused by either faulty jumpers in stopcocks at the meter position or pipes which are not securely fastened. As the moving water in the pipe is suddenly stopped, a shock wave is created through the water which causes inadequately fastened pipes to vibrate and ‘shudder’, thus creating the knocking sound......}

I trie to attach a MP3 file here which I’ve used my mobile phone recorded it when the “Knocking Noise” occurred But I could not upload it here! (or anyone could advice how I can attach it here?)

Please I would like to seek some expert good advices from this forum here about this noise, whether could the prime suspect possible root cause by faulty jumpers in stopcocks (Main stop valve?) whereby if the water piping system structure not securely fastened will not cause a “Echo Knocking Noise”?

I look forward to hearing from anyone good advice and thank you.

Best Regards.

 

[Jadnashua]

A water hammer occurs when flowing water rapidly turns off. The inertia of the water hitting the valve that turned it off can cause the pipe to jump, hitting something.

A hot water pipe that is tight going through a clamp or a wall or floor penetration can make some noises as the pipe expands when the hot water flows, and it builds up enough pressure to jump through the restriction. Correspondingly, when things cool back off, the pipes can contract and pop back, making similar sounds. This tends to happen more with plastic drain pipes, but can happen with water supply pipes as well.

A machine gun like noise can occur with flowing water through a valve if the washer in the valve is loose, causing it to flutter, and is a less common water hammer type of noise.

It's really hard to say what is causing the noises you're hearing without a bit more information.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[KC Oh]

Hi Jadnashua,

Many thanks for your quick reply and I do understand the knocking noise occurs in random it not an easy task to determine the root cause, perhaps permit me to share some of my assumptions and observation as below:

1. The water supply is a cold water pipe systems structure as here in Singapore is a tropical climate near the Equator and the main water supply pipe are steel made, I thinks it may not expands or contract due to weather temperatures and pipe structure appears solid with no loosen brackets.

2. When I had approached the 6th floor neighbour owner and he has confirmed the noise existence for months but he was expressed with no choice and tried to tolerate with it, however he has told me to seek for water department’s help to resolve the issue.

3. I had observed there were heavy waters flow sounds in the drainage pipe plumbing located in the toilet just before the “knocking noise” sounds occurred, I suspect this could the indication of during a washing machine waters draining cycle then follow by a quick inlet water tap turn off, thus create a shock wave back to trigger a “Echo Knocking Noise Vibration” by the faulty loosen stopcock jumper?

As I’m unable to upload the recorded MP3 file here to share with you the knocking noise that I’ve heard, perhaps if I could request for your permission to let me know your email ID as to allow me to email with the attach MP3 file for your good advice.

I would appreciate your advice and I look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you again and I can be reached at email: kcoh193@gmail.com

Best Regards.

 

[Jadnashua]

I do not know if these are readily available where you live, but in the USA, it is easy to find hammer arresters. Any appliance that can turn the water off quickly can create some noises. It depends on the pipe, how it is installed, the water pressure, and how fast the valve actually operates. The internal solenoid valve(s) used in a washing machine, maybe an ice maker, and even some toilet valves, can cause noises to occur. The solution is often to install a hammer arrestor. A well-designed one uses an internal piston that can slide with a trapped air chamber. When the valve is turned off, the water tries to keep moving, and it pushes against the piston, which compresses the air behind it, softening the blow. If that's the issue, adding a hammer arrestor as close to the offending valve as possible can often solve the problem. Without being there, it's really hard to say from remote. Here's a link to what I'm talking about. http://www.siouxchief.com/products/supply/arresters-and-trap-primers/arresters That site has some discussion about them and how they work. This may not be your problem.

 

[KC Oh]

Hi Jadnashua,

Thanks again for your reply and information.

I do not have much knowledge on water hammer arrestors and local availability, nevertheless this could be a solution to the problem. The suspect water hammer are exists for many months and it has been identified at 6th floor common corridor area, however this area is under the local town council management and maintenance, as I had already provided feedback information, hope if I could gather more suggestions further help the team investigate to expedite identify the root cause of the issue and to resolve the noises problem as soon as possible.

Again last night I had searched Google website and there are many useful information on water hammer noise causes and solutions, here I would like to share this very useful site link from practicalDIY.com: http://www.practicaldiy.com/plumbing/pipe-noises/water-hammer.php , mentioned here namely probable sources of ‘water hammer’ are:

1.) Inadequately secured pipework – more likely to cause ‘water hammer’ after new work has been done

2.) Ball and float valves

3.) Washing machines and Dish washer

4.) Worn Stop Valves

And also from the related page: Noises from the plumbing (http://www.practicaldiy.com/plumbing/pipe-noises/water-noises.php) suggested that “One or two loud banging noises, usually when a tap is closed”, mentioned this is a typical water hammer sound caused by a loss jumper or washer in a valve, which is very similar to the noises that I am experiencing now and the sound recorded, the suspects root sources could probable be the one of above mentioned :

4.) Worn Stop Valves – #reason: Main Stopcock Valve is located at 6th floor common corridor area (?)

OR

3.) Washing machines and Dish washer - #in one of 6th floor neighbour unit (?)

I look forward to hearing from you and I would appreciate for your good advices.

Best Regards.

 

[WorthFlorida]

In many years of trouble shooting problems, I follow a simple rule, eliminate, then isolate. Get all of your neighbors together and get them to agree to a test. You can make conference calls on some cellphone services or at least keep in contact with one neighbor via telephone. Have each neighbor turn on a specific faucet, toilet, washing machine, etc. and then off and don't forget the hot water side to.
If the water hammer occurs from multiple fixtures it can at least narrow down the area in problem. Hopefully, only one fixture will cause the problem.
If this problem just started either a fixture went bad or many years ago there was hammer noise before and it was fixed with an arrestor. That arrestor could have gone bad. In Singapore are expansion tanks used, usually before a water heater? It could be water logged, it no longer has any air pressure in it or the bladder inside the tank has burst. Expansion tanks could suppress water hammer.

 

[KC Oh]

Hi WorthFlorida,

Thank you for your reply and suggestions.

Yes, I fully agree to your suggestion of eliminate and isolate approach, however currently the local town council team is facing challenges of a few residents refusal to cooperate, reluctant for the investigation, this has been already a month of slow progress but the team still exploring options to identify the possible root cause.

In Singapore, a typical ten storey public housing block has about total of 70+ units and a common water storage tank installed at the roof top, supply waters through a steel pipe system with secured structure, each house unit fitted with a main stopcock valve and a water meter located just right outside the main entrance door, thus in a normal logical sense of any disturbance water hammer noise could have been easily detected by a resident at the common walking corridor, I was puzzle and shocked when town council team informed me that upper floor neighbors claimed that family member are not aware of such disturbance noises existence?

Right now I had already provided your good suggestion feedback to the town council team and I appreciate these are very helpful to expedite the trouble shooting progress.

Thank you again and I would appreciate to hearing for anyone good suggestions.

Best Regards.

 

[KC Oh]

Hi All,

Please be shared the below link the MP3 file that I’ve recorded of the above mentioned Water Hammer Noise:

http://www55.zippyshare.com/v/5wzVkLMT/file.html



I would appreciate to seek anyone good advice on this and hope to resolve this problem as soon as possible

Thank You and Best Regards.

 

[Reach4]

I have not heard water hammer in a highrise, but that does not sound like what I would expect a water hammer a few floors away to sound like. But I have only heard limited water hammer and only in wood houses.

 

[KC Oh]

Hi All,
Yes, the problem could be possibly other faulty parts, as such we are trying very hard to identify the root cause, whereby symptom or type of plumbing noise could also help to determine the source of issue.
I do not have much technical knowledge on plumbing trade and I had learned this "water hammer" term from Google search. I sincerely hope with the helps of all of your expertises and good advices will be able resolve the issue soon.
Just to share my own opinion, I think the knocking noises are seem to be 1 or 2 repetitive sounds radom occurred in certain interval times with some echo in background, this could be a loose part or item vibrate within a compartment knocking against the inner wall? As the building pipes system were steel made structure thus the noise got amplified travel downward to lower floors? These knocking noises could be triggered by the rapid water flows and quickly shut off by a washing machine during the washing cycle? This is just my own suspect and I could be wrong ?

Thanks again and I will update all on the investigation progress.

 

[KC Oh]

Hi All,
Just I would like to update over last weekend there were no progress as the knocking noise still heard, waiting for the town coucil team investigation results.

Hanging on....hopefully to hear some good suggestions...

 

[KC Oh]

Hi All Plumbing Professionals,

Please help! I would really needs to seek some plumbing Professional’s advices here to suggest what could be the possible root cause of these “pipe knocking noises”?

Just to update that the local town council team had taken action and carried out a local flashing at 6th and 7th floors common corridor areas about a week ago on Thursday (# as they tried to identify any faulty house unit’s valve or faucet?) , however after about 3 days the annoying knocking noises has recurred again on Sunday night?

Again I had captured and recorded MP3 file this morning at the below Zippyshare.com URL share folder:

http://www31.zippyshare.com/v/t6Z6sfE7/file.html

Apparently the noises were “Off” for about 3 days but has recurred again? Whereby now could be focused the suspects on (1.) “Faulty loosen internal jumpers in stopcocks” or rather over (2.) The structure pipes which are not securely fastened? (#Really unsure?)

I would appreciate to seek anyone good advice on this and hope to resolve this problem as soon as possible

Thank You again and best regards.

 

[KC Oh]

HI All,

I had called water department to seek advices again and shared the recorded audio file with the maintenance team, they have came twice in past 2 days to check and investigate, a senior technical officer went round to each upper floor house units to verify the faucets and toilet flashes for possible cause and he had also checked all the main stopcocks outside the house and found some were not fully opened, he told me that could be the main cause of the pipe knocking noise heard, whereby the jumper washers would be noise source and he has helped to put all of these stopcocks to fully open position. He has advised me to continue monitoring and asked me to give him a phone call next week to update the status.

Kindly permit me to seek advices here that Stopcock should it always be fully open when switched on, as I have always think had it open just enough to get decent pressure and have never put it anywhere near fully open to prevent leaking or dripping happen? Or having the Stopcock fully open will it harm if in long run eventually the spindle jam with limescale and unable to turn it off ? Indeed this is useful information as I could have been totally wrong with my own misconception all the while?

I hope this would be the root cause of the issue and problem can be resolved soon.

Thank you and best regards.