Did my well pump motor fail?

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Reach4

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I read the part about storing the pump in water or filling it with water from the bottom when it's time to use it. Should I be storing my pump itself in water until I drop it back down the well. I plan on dropping it back in today.
Are you asking if you should store the pump in water for the next several hours? No. I think that storing the motor (which could be attached to the "wet end") in water thing would be for years, not even weeks. If you are asking about the just the wet (non-motor) end, I don't think that is ever needed, even for years.

Do you intend to open the motor, and top up with distilled water?
 

Dis360

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you intend to open the motor, and top up with distilled water?

Pardon my ignorance. I may have missed the point of what you were trying to show me.

Is it beneficial that I add water to the motor before dropping it in? If so I will do it (and document it). Does this help with cooling until the motor gets water logged by itself?
 

Reach4

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Is it beneficial that I add water to the motor before dropping it in? If so I will do it (and document it). Does this help with cooling until the motor gets water logged by itself?
I have never handled a pump motor, and this topping up with water is something that is not typically discussed. However Valveman has a lot of experience with pumps and motors.

But your description of the reason for the is the way I read it.

Did you power up the old motor?

I think I would practice getting into that inside area on the failed motor before going into the new motor.
 
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Dis360

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Is the new motor the same as the old? See what the weight difference is.

I weighed them both side by side they're both exactly 20.2 lbs. Since we were talking about turning them upside down and removing the bottom diaphragm, I noticed when I turned the new one upside down I could hear a little bit of gurgling almost like there was some water under the diaphragm suppose it could be air popping in not sure, really sounds like water but it's brand new, maybe they come with us some water in them, from being quality controlled on a test bench or something. The old one didn't make any sounds when I turned it upside down.
 

Reach4

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They come filled with water mixed with a non-toxic antifreeze from the factory.

Oooh... found this: https://franklinwater.com/more/service/aim-manual/motor-application/all-motors/page-3/ says
Franklin Electric submersible motors are a water-lubricated design. The fill solution consists of a mixture of deionized water and Propylene Glycol (a non-toxic antifreeze). The solution will prevent damage from freezing in temperatures to -40 °F (-40 °C); motors should be stored in areas that do not go below this temperature. The solution will partially freeze below 27 °F (-3 °C), but no damage occurs. Repeated freezing and thawing should be avoided to prevent possible loss of fill solution.

There may be an interchange of fill solution with well water during operation. Care must be taken with motors removed from wells during freezing conditions to prevent damage.

When the storage temperature does not exceed 100 °F (37 °C), storage time should be limited to two years. Where temperatures reach 100° to 130 °F, storage time should be limited to one year.

Loss of a few drops of liquid will not damage the motor as an excess amount is provided, and the filter check valve will allow lost liquid to be replaced by filtered well water upon installation. If there is reason to believe there has been a considerable amount of leakage, consult the factory for checking procedures.​

You might want to get the whole big Franklin AIM manual PDF. It does not have more on this topic, but has nice info on wire sizes, amps, and more.
 
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Reach4

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That 4" white drain pipe works good. Can't get the green in thin wall anymore.
flow inducer sleeve. shroud
The solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe has a bigger ID than SDR 35, but apparently that is big enough.
solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe: OD 4.215 ID 4.056 (typically white or green)
Schedule 40: OD 4.500 ID 4.026
SDR 35 OD: 4.215 3.890

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...m-d2729/4x10astm2729solid/p-1444438058058.htm is D2729.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/JM-eagle-4-in-x-10-ft-PVC-Bell-End-Gravity-Sewer-Pipe-30569/100174444 may be D2729 but ID says 3.961, which would still be good.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/4-in-x-10-ft-Sewer-Drain-PVC-Pipe/3133147 is D2729.
 

Dis360

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They come filled with water mixed with a non-toxic antifreeze from the factory.

Oooh... found this: https://franklinwater.com/more/service/aim-manual/motor-application/all-motors/page-3/ says


When the storage temperature does not exceed 100 °F (37 °C), storage time should be limited to two years. Where temperatures reach 100° to 130 °F, storage time should be limited to one year.​

Interesting, nice find.
I wonder if they are referring to new and old motors. Mine is from 2017 but unused, I didn't know that when I bought it. The documentation says not to store it for more than 2 years at normal temp. I suppose this is what valveman is referring to about filling it up before use.
 

Valveman

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I wouldn't install a motor that has been sitting on the shelf for any length of time without checking the water level. Especially if you can hear water sloshing around the motor is not full.
 

Fitter30

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Have to ask after going through all the work to pull a pump why wouldn't you replace the whole pump and motor. Old pump has to have impeller ,bearing wear and possibly a vibration.
 

Dis360

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Took the bottom off the new motor to top it off with distilled water and maybe propylene glycol if needed I have some.

When I took the cap off I can see flakes of some type in there. Kinda looks like thin black metal but it's not magnetic. I have no idea if this is normal or not. I'm sure things can settle in the bottom but...
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Fitter30

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This is on franklins site. It is recommended that one or more check valves always be used in submersible pump installations. If the pump does not have a built-in check valve, a line check valve should be installed in the discharge line within 25 feet of the pump and below the draw down level of the water supply. For deeper settings, check valves should be installed per the manufacturer’s recommendations. More than one check valve may be required, but more than the recommended number of check valves should not be used. Swing type check valves are not acceptable and should never be used with submersible motors/pumps. Swing type check valves have a slower reaction time which can cause water hammer (see next page). Internal pump check valves or spring loaded check valves close quickly and help eliminate water hammer. Check valves are used to hold pressure in the system when the pump stops. They also prevent backspin, water hammer and upthrust. Any of these can lead to early pump or motor failure. NOTE: Only positive sealing check valves should be used in submersible installations. Although drilling the check valves or using drain-back check valves may prevent back spinning, they create upthrust and water hammer problems. A. Backspin - With no check valve or a failed check valve, the water in the drop pipe and the water in the system can flow down the discharge pipe when the motor stops. This can cause the pump to rotate in a reverse direction. If the motor is started while it is backspinning, an excessive force is placed across the pumpmotor assembly that can cause impeller damage, motor or pump shaft breakage, excessive bearing wear, etc. B. C. Upthrust - With no check valve, a leaking check valve, or drilled check valve, the unit starts under a zero head condition. This causes an uplifting or upthrust on the impeller-shaft assembly in the pump. This upward movement carries across the pump-motor coupling and creates an upthrust condition in the motor. Repeated upthrust can cause premature failure of both the pump and the motor. Water Hammer - If the lowest check valve is more than 30 feet above the standing (lowest static) water level, or a lower check valve leaks and the check valve above holds, a vacuum is created in the discharge piping. On the next pump start, water moving at very high velocity fills the void and strikes the closed check valve and the stationary water in the pipe above it, causing a hydraulic shock. This shock can split pipes, break joints and damage the pump and/or motor. Water hammer can often be heard or felt. When discovered, the system should be shut down and the pump installer contacted to correct the problem.
My experience with propylene glycol in chilled and hor water systems it can turn acidic if inhibitors go bad. Valveman wrote franklin only recommends storage two years and if inventory at a supply house could sit another year.
 

Valveman

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"If the lowest check valve is more than 30 feet above the standing (lowest static) water level, or a lower check valve leaks and the check valve above holds, a vacuum is created in the discharge piping. On the next pump start, water moving at very high velocity fills the void and strikes the closed check valve and the stationary water in the pipe above it, causing a hydraulic shock. This shock can split pipes, break joints and damage the pump and/or motor."

At least they got one part right. So, I can't believe they still recommend more than 1 check valve. Hydraulic shock will always happen when you have more than 1 check valve. It is not a matter of if, but when the hydraulic shock of having more than 1 check valve will start causing problems. Even having a check valve 25' up from the pump can cause hydraulic shock. Submersible pumps need a good metal, spring load, poppet style check valve right on the pump, and no other check valves anywhere in the system.

I don't remember saying 2 years was the shelf life of motors, but I would check the water in a motor that has been sitting for any length of time. Flush out the black chunks of rust and fill with distilled water. You don't need glycol unless it is going to be left in freezing conditions before installation.
 

Dis360

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"If the lowest check valve is more than 30 feet above the standing (lowest static) water level, or a lower check valve leaks and the check valve above holds, a vacuum is created in the discharge piping. On the next pump start, water moving at very high velocity fills the void and strikes the closed check valve and the stationary water in the pipe above it, causing a hydraulic shock. This shock can split pipes, break joints and damage the pump and/or motor."

Flush out the black chunks of rust and fill with distilled water. You don't need glycol unless it is going to be left in freezing conditions before installation.

I think the 2 years statement came from the franklin documentation, it says "storage time should be limited to 2 years". I'm going to remove the black flakes, flush the motor out and fill with distilled water. The Franklin documentation says the same thing about the check valves, only 1 check value is needed and it can be in the pump, which my pump does have one, its a Mcdonald 24075K. I cut off the swing gate check value coming off the elbow at the pump head. Just to confirm, I'm good with just 1 check valve and it can be in the pump? At the well head I'm going to add a T and a ball valve so I have the option of a 1" full flow right from the well head if needed.

Also adding a flow sleeve that will extend 2 feet past the bottom of the motor, to potentially help with sediment, there is no casing around the pump at 180 ft. it ends at 70 ft.
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Dis360

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I feel like I keep saying "I'm installing the pump today" but today is the day, I've got everything done. Took a lot time to ensure everything was taped up correctly, motor centered in flow sleeve, checked the pipe for any damage, extended the safety rope up through the cap (it was tied into the pipe about 2 feet below the cap).

Flow sleeve complete:

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Bannerman

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The inducer sleeve did not need to encase the entire pump but only needed to extend above the pump's water inlet screen. Because water will be drawn through the inlet screen, all water to the pump will be forced to enter from the bottom of the sleeve which will ensure constant water flow across the electric motor to keep it cooled.
 

Dis360

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The inducer sleeve did not need to encase the entire pump but only needed to extend above the pump's water inlet screen. Because water will be drawn through the inlet screen, all water to the pump will be forced to enter from the bottom of the sleeve which will ensure constant water flow across the electric motor to keep it cooled.

Yea wasn't sure about that, I took the design from a YouTube vid. I can cut it back and redrill the screw holes, you think there is any downside to having it extended up the pump like that?
 

Bannerman

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any downside to having it extended up the pump like that?
Not that I'm aware of other than it may have been more fiddly making allowances for the safety rope. Some air may remain trapped for some time above the pump inlet screen, but I anticipate the air will eventually be drawn through the pump.

Most do not utilize screw holes but rely on gear clamp(s) to fasten it securely, with the tape wrap to seal the openings.
 

Reach4

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Most do not utilize screw holes but rely on gear clamp(s) to fasten it securely, with the tape wrap to seal the openings.
I think those screws were to try to center the motor/pump in the shroud.
 
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