Did I pay too much?

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alhurley

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reminds me of the old story of the doctor whose hot water tank goes out in his house on Sunday morning. Calls his plumber and is told he'll be over Monday morning as he is not available today. Doctor is adamant and is told plumber will come over later in the day for premium rate. Doctor agrees. Plumber is interrupted during morning golf game and goes to doctor's house. Looks around hot water tank, tops a few places with pipe wrench - hot water starts flowing. Total time on job - 5 minutes. Doctor gets bill for $100 a few days later and is outraged - "that's more than my rate (per hour)!!" Calls plumber and insists on itemized bill - "how dare you charge me $100 to bang on my tank for 5 minutes!" Doctor gets itemized bill: Banging on water heater: $ 5.00; Knowing where to bang: $95.00
 
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Rldev

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Cal said:
This Flate Rate pricing thing has me a little torn too.Yes ,I would make a lot more money flat rating.No, I don't think it is resonable in a lot of cases.
$ 450. for a pvc flange and toilet re-set ?? IF it was that simple then it seems pretty high ! HOWEVER... Why is it o.k. for a lawyer to charge $400 per hour or a kid doctor to charge $100+ for 2 MINUTES just to LOOK in your kid's ear ??!!
Are we not highly trained , VERY needed & dedicated professionals ? I mean COME ON ,,,,any plumber out there,,,think back on your apprentice years. We ALL did things that were enough to " Make a Billy Goat puke!" Yes that was the way it was it it made all of us better for it. Should we not be compensated just because we don't wear a fancy suit/tie !!??
Sorry for the speech,,it just burns my ass crack when we are treated like a "sub-culture" till we are needed .

Cal


Sorry, but a lot more is required to be a Doctor or Lawyer. I mean no disrespect to the profession, but I have plumbers and electrcians in my area that charge like lawyers:) If you want to charge $150 an hour, show me your master plumbing certification :)

And if your are really being honest, $450 to glue a flange and place a toilet on it is bit much. Remember the toilet was removed, so the plumber should have known what was entailed.
 
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alhurley

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rldev said:
....And if your are really being honest, $450 to glue a flange and place a toilet on it is bit much. Remember the toilet was removed, so the plumber should have known what was entailed....
interesting point about the toilet - did the guy use a "fixed price" that assumed a toilet move?

often it pays to ask just what is involved in the job, especially if you are doing some of the surrounding work yourself. A couple of years ago we decided to add new windows to the remodeling project and started pricing. One place had a "home show special" that included "free" installation, but not surprisingly the bottom lines were about the same. Feeling like I was being had on the install (and being a fearless DIYer) I had my wife call the place with the windows we liked and get a cash-n-carry price. The idea was I'd get one and try it and go from there. Well, the sales guy got curious and asked my wife a few questions about the project. When she explained we were doing all the drywall repair anyway, he said "OH, that's different. I gave you a 'remodel' price. If all I have to do is set the window in the opening it's 'new construction." DUH. Price went from about $300 per to about $65. And they even took the old ones. Needless to say they got the job, and did it well. :)

-art-
 

Cal

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rldev said:
Sorry, but a lot more is required to be a Doctor or Lawyer. I mean no disrespect to the profession, but I have plumbers and electrcians in my area that charge like lawyers:) If you want to charge $150 an hour, show me your master plumbing certification :)

And if your are really being honest, $450 to glue a flange and place a toilet on it is bit much. Remember the toilet was removed, so the plumber should have known what was entailed.


I agree that $450 sounds quite high . Am NOT trying to belittle Doc/ Lawyers yet WHY are their rates o.k to not question. ?? Just pay their bill because ," That's the going rate and that's just how it is." I just think that we , MASTER PLUMBERS /Buisness owners should be allowed in on that thought process.
 

Rldev

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It is absolutely right to question their bills. Docs and Lawyers can be quite outrageous. However, law school and medical school costs a ton of money. Someone has got to pay for those loans:)
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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Plumbers are HEALTH OCCUPATIONAL WORKERS. What is the first thing that the hurricane has posed as a serious threat? No fresh drinking water and no sewage. Both pin back to plumbers and what they do on a daily basis. They have to evacuate the superdome down there because the bathrooms are literally swimming in feces and urine. I certainly wouldn't want to be the plumber that has to deal with that mess. But if it wasn't for plumbers people would still be throwing their ****pots out in the alley ways like they did in Rome. I think the average life span back then was 34? I think I am going to charge more as a plumber after reading this filth about plumbers charging too much. Look out......I'm coming to a neighborhood near you and my charges stand.....FIRM. Anything after 6 pm I get 3 figures an hour....no one complains, that is the way it is. :p
 
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Terry

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Doctors can charge what they will, and plumbers will too.
I don't expect any plumber to value themselves less than anyone else.
It's like RUGGED says, when you are used to clean water and very little spread of disease, you come to take what plumbers do for granted.
Plumbing is what seperates the US from the third world countries.
 

Rldev

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Terry said:
Doctors can charge what they will, and plumbers will too.
I don't expect any plumber to value themselves less than anyone else.
It's like RUGGED says, when you are used to clean water and very little spread of disease, you come to take what plumbers do for granted.
Plumbing is what seperates the US from the third world countries.

What does "I don't expect any plumber to value themselves less than anyone else. " mean?

I have plenty of respect for what plumbers do. Everybody has a job to do and every job is important. The market will determine prices, but the average plumber is not going to make more money then a chemical engineer working at DuPont. I'm sure the guy who just payed $450 will not be running back to that plumber.

Tell me, what would you charge for a flate rate for the entire day. 8 hours?
Do you do this? over $1000?
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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What does a chemical engineer from Dupont have any relevance to what plumbers charge? The value of a plumber carries weight over a chemical engineer because we are the backbone of society that allows potable water to be what it is, keeping waste where it belongs. Just because a few weekend DIY warriors think plumbing is so easy, the field of plumbing is quite large and minimizes the capacity of a chemical engineer does at Dupont. Flat rating a day's work would end up being over a grand most likely. People can complain all they want about what plumbers charge but in the end we charge what needs to be charged and if you think working with fecal matter of any type is "simple"......you need to reconsider your thinking. One scratch of the finger replacing a wax ring on a toilet could lead to hepatitis, but I bet you don't think that replacing a toilet is a big issue is it. Pfffffffft! We endanger our lives everyday dealing with the nasty stuff that people are used to flushing down the drain or watching it drain out of a sink. We offer the same strongholds as doctors and nurses in the medical fields. WE ARE HEALTH OCCUPATIONAL WORKERS.
 

Rldev

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What does it have to do with it? Supply and Demand. There is more of you, less of them, simple as that. Now if you were a chief plumbing engineer for a major plumbing firm that does say Oil rigs, giant pipe lines, etc well that would be different wouldn't it:)

Again, I haven't seen one person here, including myself take for granted what plumbers do. Somone asked a question of what they thought a fair price was for replacing a toilet and fixing loose flange. Some agreed and some did not. Not such a big deal. It's just when people start charging over a hundred thirty dollars an hour(no matter what their field), I want to see some qualifications. And if I am paying someone over $1000 a day I wan't to see more then just a regular license. I agree DYI plumbing is easy until you have some serious problems.
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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I have nothing more than a Master's license in one state which I reside in. And if I had a customer that wanted more than what I needed to do the job, I would refer them to another plumber since I know that the customer is being unreasonable and probably treats most service providers the same way. That is your choice though. I can prequalify a customer quickly on the phone just solely by the questions asked to me. It's better to avoid any confrontation in such a way. I just hang up and never show up. :p I respect my customers and I never seem to have issues with my charges. Like I stated on some thread here on this site I get 3 figures after 6 pm and my method of operation is almost unmatched. I know this (can't always speak for my employees) because of the referrals and the mentions of certain things I do that sets me apart from the rest. There are 976 plumbers in my area and there seems to be no issues of supply and demand; we are all charging mostly the same + or - $25 fluctuation. Where you have a legit gripe is when a plumber...or so called plumber or "hack" comes in, charges a fortune and you find out the work is incorrect. That, is justified cause to raise **** about. I understand that people do not like to spend money, I am in that same very boat. But sometimes I think plumbers charge exuberant prices to "certain" customers just because they have qualified them as stubborn or unreasonable. This way the money constitutes the aggravation dealing with them. Lawyers have been doing this for a loooooooooooooooooooooong time. I did a job @ 1:00 am the morning of Labor day, charged $130/hour and the old feller was so thankful for me to be there, fixed the problem (kitchen sink clog caused by 2 tenants above) and not one time did he ever ask for anything other than a bill. $$$
 
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Gary Slusser

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The $450 for a flange, and $130/hr for unclogging a sink sounds as if it's all about the money, and not so much about serving the customer. That's like the water treatment industry where there are some dealers selling softeners for $4000-$7000 that other local dealers would have charged $1250 for the same thing. The first type is a blight on the industry. Then comes an internet dealer that sells the same thing or better than either of the other two for $800 delivered and both of the local guys get real upset and complain. Otherwise I'd think a Master plumber with employees would have one scheduled for on call weekend and holidays.

Gary
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Kristi

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rldev, you can request someone's qualifications regardless of their hourly rate, but let it be known that $130/hr is a reasonable rate for the services being offered. Dr's and Lawyers have years of schooling to pay for, but you're paying for our/plumbers' experience, knowledge, and resourcefulness in how to handle a variety of situations under the gun.
In reference to the oil/gas field, I've been there (as the only woman pipefitter, let me know if you know another!) and let me tell you, they pay $1000/day without a second thought... it has everything to do with your experience, willingness to relocate, and acceptance of instability! My tasks as a pipefitter were mind-numbingly repetitive and for 14-16 hours a day during shutdown... great money, too hard of work, and much less gratifying that the far more interesting and better money you get for flexing your plumbing knowledge on the endless number of crisies out there.... $1000/day? We're worth it! The state of Louisiana sure could use plumbers more than anything right now...
Did I go off on another tangent again? Sorry guys... :)
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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Well that is cool to know that you're a female plumber. I guess I should of figured that out by your avatar and name......DUH. It's always good to see that it is not only a man's job to do plumbing. I had a friend years ago that would get his wife to help set the fixtures on all of his finishes. She was damn good too! I don't think there is enough money for me to go to La........talk about infectious disease and airborne bacteria......sheeeeesh! I feel sorry for those who have no choice in the matter. They do say that over time that plumbers do build an immunity by being around the nasty stuff. I think it is just luck most times. I try not to do too much drain cleaning. Drain stack replacements I kinda shun away from now. It was great getting dirty back in the day but now I look at it from a hazard point of view. What we really do is hazard pay in a respect, along with being around it so much.
 
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Rldev

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Hey a crisis is certainly different then just realligning pipes in a bathroom. Crisis management and resolution is a different matter. Rugged, do all licensed plumbers have Masters certification?

However I have a hard time paying $3000 for a plumber to move a 2 water supply lines, a shower drain 6 inches and a toilet drain 10 inches in a 8 x 6 bathroom that will be gutted(basement has fully exposed access to pipes). This is 1.5 days of work at most. Then again, everyone asks for the world where I live.

As for NO, I wouldn't want to be on the plumbing crews there.
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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I cannot speak for other plumbers on how many have Master's licenses that actually do the work. I do but not as much as I did at one time. Young and dumb makes you old and smart quick. ;) Most are but that doesn't mean that the master plumber comes to your door to do the work. The larger the company the bigger chance your plumber that comes to the door is unlicensed even as a journeyman even. In essence that is not good; you naturally want the best man to do the best job with the best credentials. I know of a company in the area that is testing backflows and putting in water heaters for a big outfit with not even a journeyman plumber in the service division, not even a backflow license in the state he is testing. How do they get by with it? I wish I knew. It just happens that way. I feel your pain in respect to your situation without being bullish because I was at the mercy of some tile guys recently and what they charged was $5000, the job turned out beautiful. It was worth every nickel spent because there are no problems, the accuracy was flawless, and I know that the finished product is problem free. I couldn't tell you what they made an hour but I know the materials was probably no more than $1500. They have an excellent reputation with no nonsense. People do pay extra to have that peace of mind. The very reason I did to make sure tiles weren't going to fall off or cracking or angled grout lines.
 

Sulconst2

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rldev said:
Hey a crisis is certainly different then just realligning pipes in a bathroom. Crisis management and resolution is a different matter. Rugged, do all licensed plumbers have Masters certification?

However I have a hard time paying $3000 for a plumber to move a 2 water supply lines, a shower drain 6 inches and a toilet drain 10 inches in a 8 x 6 bathroom that will be gutted(basement has fully exposed access to pipes). This is 1.5 days of work at most. Then again, everyone asks for the world where I live.

As for NO, I wouldn't want to be on the plumbing crews there.


in jersey the 3 grand would cover the move, the rough in, which is probably the shower valve also, the installation of all fixtures, the seal on your permit plus a warranty for workmanship. you could do an exempt applicant because you're the homeowner. but inspectors hate that and ALWAYS find something to fail. which slows the job and costs time. sometimes time is worth more than money.
 

Terry

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Training plumbers

Some places have master plumbers, other places call them "residential plumbers", min 6000 hours with a journyman before you take the test, and "commercial plumbers" min 8000 hours before you take the test.
We do carry cards and keep them current.
I would say I learned more about plumbing after the first five years.

The first five years was like basic training. You still didn't know much.

When I started my training, along with about thirty others of similar age, the main purpose of the trainers, was to see how much we could take without quitting.

Most of us were married, and some with kids, so quitting for most of us was out of the question. I've never been in boot camp, but I would guess it was somewhat along those lines. The first week in the field, was picks, digging bars, shovels and sledge hammers. To make it more enjoyable, the Journyman and the apprentice insulted and made fun of us.
They didn't want to waste their time training you if you were going to quit on them.
It was also payback for how they had been treated.
The first week, my hands were so sore, I couldn't close my hands.

After the first week, my hands got used to it, and I started picking up speed.
Common injuries became smashed fingers, cuts, and burns on face and arms.
On some job sites, I would wear rubber boots when my knees were causing too much pain, then when my arches were giving me trouble I would switch to stiff boots. In the Winter, when the rains came, there were times when you would get shocked if you forgot and touched your knee to the floor while drilling.
Working with 1/2 hp drill motors that would break studs in half, you tried not to get your chin hit when you hit knots and nails that were hidden.
I think the worst for me was dislocating my shoulder every so often.
The pain from that made sleeping difficult.
Try crawling a crawlspace after that.
I could still knock a hole through a 8" foundation in five sledgehammer blows or less though. When my arm was good.

From a business standpoint, what the homeowner is seeing in pay, is not what the plumber gets to take home. The owner of the company has a lot of uses for the money that is billed.

Part of what any business does, is having a structure that operates within government guidelines.

You will have business licenses, taxes, advertising, vehicle expenses, tools to be bought and maintained.

Insurance, workmens comp, health plans, phone bills, gas, repairs, time out to keep stock, dump runs, answer phones, order materials, explaining things to workers before they leave for the day. Book keeping, tracking receivables and payables.

If you're doing service work, you're lucky to get four billable hours a day per plumber.
You pay him for eight, he gets you four.
With contract work, where he may be working the same place for days, it gets better. More billable hours, and typical for the contract, less per hour.

Homeowners may be confusing a billed rate to a working wage.
When an airplane is sold, the pricetag is in the million plus range, the workers don't get all that. The business that builds the plane may only be making 3% which is a very small margin considering that everytime you pay with a credit card, the business owner has to pay between 2% and 3.5% of the total amount charged to "card services".

There are many places that the money goes to.
 
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