Diaphragm pressure tank? Amtrol WX350D?

[Sid Post]

I don't want a cheap replacement well tank from Lowes, Home Depot, Tractor Supply, etc. I want something reasonably priced with good quality, not the cheapest thing I can find. Air over water is out of the question due to expense though, I would like to give it a try to pull some light iron out of my water. I don't have sulfur so, off-gassing isn't needed.

A Pentair/Pentek Challenger tanks seem like a reasonable choice but, I can also get the Amtrol WX350D for the same money and it has a 7-year warranty and the ends of the tank look better. Should I consider anyone besides the Amtrol and Pentek options? Any reason to recommend one over the other?

TIA,
Sid

 

[Reach4]

https://www.flexconind.com/products/well-tanks/challenger-well-tanks/ is not Pentek as far as I know... but companies buy other companies all of the time. Good diaphragm tanks. That is what I have, and it does not lose air.

Well-X-Trol is top tier. I don't think the WX-350D is worth the premium over the WX-350, unless your base area runs wet.

The Flexcon FL-40 is fiberglass, and may be worth considering also.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Sid Post]

WX-350D vs. WX-350 is less than $20 difference at my well. While it doesn't run 'wet', I was thinking the thermal barrier would be beneficial in winter with a little bit of heat on it for freezing conditions.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

What are you running for pumping equipment that you are considering a 130gallon tank? Rarely do I incorporate WX350's into a system, they have a higher cost per gallon than the other options and are shorter lived than WX-302's. I'm more inclined to include multiple tanks than put all my eggs in one basket. The redundancy of multiple tanks allows me to keep systems online when servicing them and allows me to schedule a change out rather than have to change a bad tank on an emergency basis.

You may also consider a cycle stop valve, which allows for significantly smaller tanks than what is normally necessary.

Well-x-Trol are the best tanks on the market. It's the only brand I install. I prefer the standard steel bases over the poly. All my installs go on concrete blocks, I'm not concerned about the tank being in standing water and you can work on the tank tee without hitting the floor.

 

[Sid Post]

What are you running for pumping equipment that you are considering a 130gallon tank? Rarely do I incorporate WX350's into a system, they have a higher cost per gallon than the other options and are shorter lived than WX-302's. I'm more inclined to include multiple tanks than put all my eggs in one basket. The redundancy of multiple tanks allows me to keep systems online when servicing them and allows me to schedule a change out rather than have to change a bad tank on an emergency basis.

You may also consider a cycle stop valve, which allows for significantly smaller tanks than what is normally necessary.

Well-x-Trol are the best tanks on the market. It's the only brand I install. I prefer the standard steel bases over the poly. All my installs go on concrete blocks, I'm not concerned about the tank being in standing water and you can work on the tank tee without hitting the floor.

Huge thanks for your comments!

I live on 40 acres and water cattle as needed and a huge garden at times. I occasionally put water into my front pond so it doesn't go dry and kill all my fish. My friend I also raise fish in multiple ~300 gallon tank systems so, a 50% water flush for Ammonia could be 375 gallons real easy in our small systems (our big system was ~2100 gallons so it was basically impossible to do a single 50% flush).

Your comment about two tanks is one I considered solely on a cost basis with the Amtrol WX350D being $1014 at my well house door. 80's and 60's are ~$700~800 so, a pair of 60's or 80's costs me more per gallon based on the pricing I have. Perhaps I can find a better deal on the small tanks but, it may be a volume thing here since everyone runs 120's on small well pumps and a pair on a 5HP pump.

I am looking into the Cycle Stop Valve as well which is a new one to me which I learned about on this site!

Around here, all the water well drillers use the "Flex-Lite" air over water tanks. My friend claims his water is at ~230' (I think that's it) and is in the Wilcox aquifer though his well is ~100' from a 13.5 acre pond with pristine water. His water is clear but has sulfur which he now off-gases. Everyone else around here is down around ~850' (like the guy 'next door') to get to the Wilcox where there is no sulfur or iron thanks to some Granite isolation with the surface. My well is about 300' less than average and while I don't have sulfur, I do have very light iron due to being in the very top of the aquifer above the Wilcox.

When you say the smaller tanks are longer lived, that surprises me a little. I would think expansion and contraction would be less for most things though, a Cycle Stop Valve definitely changes things.

 

[Craigpump]

The thought is that the taller the tank, the more the diaphram stretches which can lead to shorter diaphram life. That said, we regularly see taller tanks such as 203's, 252's & 350's last over 20 years. I can show you a few 203's & 350's that are approaching 30 years. Maintaining precharge is the key to long tank life.

 

[Valveman]

I would need to know the pump model number and depth to static water level to see if a CSV is applicable for your pump? But if a CSV will work with the pump you have, you can use a much smaller tank. A WX35o is a 119 gallon size tank, BUT it only holds about 30 gallons of water. That is just the way pressure tanks work. Without a CSV, cycling the pump for every 30 gallons used can add up to LOTS of cycling. Irrigation, filling a pond, and things like that can cause lots of cycles on the pump. But with a CSV you only have one cycle per water use event. So even if you irrigate or fill the pond for hours or even days, the pump only cycles once in all that time.

 

[Sid Post]

https://www.flexconind.com/products/well-tanks/challenger-well-tanks/ is not Pentek as far as I know... but companies buy other companies all of the time. Good diaphragm tanks. That is what I have, and it does not lose air.

Well-X-Trol is top tier. I don't think the WX-350D is worth the premium over the WX-350, unless your base area runs wet.

The Flexcon FL-40 is fiberglass, and may be worth considering also.

You are correct! Flexcon Industries makes the Challenger tank. In Texas there is only one distributor which only sells to the industry so, the mark up is protected without a reasonable way for a farmer/rancher to buy one economically. The Flexcon FL-40 looks like a nice tank but, it is very expensive compared to the Well-X-Trol. The main advantage I see is weight but, specs say there is only ~35# difference and the tank is ~2" skinnier for tight doorways.

At $15, the premium for a plastic base "D" model Well-X-Trol pressure tank is minimal in the overall scheme of things but, as mentioned above I think some cinder blocks negates any advantage and would make maintenance a whole lot easier with a little more room to work on fittings, drains, reading gauges, etc.

 

[Sid Post]

I would need to know the pump model number and depth to static water level to see if a CSV is applicable for your pump? But if a CSV will work with the pump you have, you can use a much smaller tank. A WX35o is a 119 gallon size tank, BUT it only holds about 30 gallons of water. That is just the way pressure tanks work. Without a CSV, cycling the pump for every 30 gallons used can add up to LOTS of cycling. Irrigation, filling a pond, and things like that can cause lots of cycles on the pump. But with a CSV you only have one cycle per water use event. So even if you irrigate or fill the pond for hours or even days, the pump only cycles once in all that time.

The lady I bought this property from was a city gal and her husband took care of everything. When he died, she didn't really have the skills and knowledge to take care of everything and eventually moved to the Dallas area. So, there are some unknowns with my well.

The well is ~550' deep, with a 1HP pump and flows well. Best guess is flow rate is ~5GPM but, I can't test it right now without a control box. For near-term household needs, a pair of WX-302's seems like the smart 'safe' choice at a moderate price point. When the weather warms up and gardening, pond fills, etc. are needed I'm thinking I would add a cycle stop valve if my well pump has recurring issues like it did last Fall. For household use, a two 86's are most likely overkill for anything I would do in the house. The real issue becomes problematic with the garden, pond, and fish tanks thrown in the mix.

My other option for heavy use pond and fish tank fills would be to run a Tee off the well (1 1/2" pipe) on a ball valve to an open ~2" PVC pipe with gravity and airlift as needed to get the water where it needs to go at whatever rate the well can drive the water flow.

Right now a 300-gallon fill takes over an hour via 'garden hose' so, I'm really at cross purposes I think with household needs versus 'farm' needs. A cycle stop valve on the pond side of the well (or wellhead) may be the optimal solution so household water doesn't go to zero if I run wide open to the pond and fish tanks.

 

[Sid Post]

Thanks everyone! I have two WX-302's on their way to me. While a bit more expensive than a single ~110gal replacement from a reputable source, the pair of smaller tanks didn't cost me that much more AND I have more capacity which should be good for me well.

While I could get cheaper tanks locally, the higher quality of the WX-302 and its 7-year warranty won me over. I have been around too many cheap tanks that failed during Thanksgiving dinner and Christmas Eve/Morning while growing up on a farm in Oklahoma to see the short-sighted benefit of a cheaper imported tank.

Also as pointed out above, if tank one fails I can save Thanksgiving/Christmas by cutting out the failed tank.

 

[Reach4]

Also as pointed out above, if tank one fails I can save Thanksgiving/Christmas by cutting out the failed tank.

If one tank were to fail, you probably would not notice, unless you were specifically testing for that.

 

[Sid Post]

I will have cut-off valves and pressure gauges on each tank. But, yes if a tank fails during a holiday meal I am very unlikely to notice until I'm working outside the house and have the washer or something similar on while pulling a bunch of water for the fish or something similar to stress the system.

The nice thing will be that if a tank fails, I don't have to drop everything and fix it ASAP. I can just cut it out of the system, detach it and replace at a time that is more convenient for me with minimal hassle since I won't have to tear into things to replace it right then and there like I would on a single tank system.

The evening of high school graduation, I was in the shower when everything quit. Then there is the Christmas Eve get together after feeding cattle and an unplanned trip to Grandpa's to get the feedlot off me for the big extended family dinner. If a pressure tank failure in transparent to me at another event like that, it will be ~$700 well spent IMHO. Plus the extra capacity should be better for my well pump.

 

[Valveman]

A CSV is not as helpful on a 5 GPM pump as it is a 10 GPM or larger pump. Only having 5 GPM pump I can see why you would have "issues like last fall". That isn't much water to work with. What you might want to do is install a large storage tank like 1500-2500 gallons, and use a booster pump with a CSV so you can use as much water as you want. Your well pump will fill the storage tank at 5 GPM, but you can use 20 GPM or so from the booster pump as long as there is water in the storage tank. This would allow you to use more than one water outlet at a time without losing pressure.

 

[Valveman]

The evening of high school graduation, I was in the shower when everything quit. Then there is the Christmas Eve get together after feeding cattle and an unplanned trip to Grandpa's to get the feedlot off me for the big extended family dinner. If a pressure tank failure in transparent to me at another event like that, it will be ~$700 well spent IMHO. Plus the extra capacity should be better for my well pump.

Pumps always quit at the worst time, always! But a bad tank will not stop the water from coming to the house, only a bad pump will do that. But the cycling on/off that destroyed the tank bladder will also destroy the pump, and it will do it even faster after the tank bladder fails. Eliminating the cycling is what will be "better for the pump".

And I will bet you can put in a big storage tank with a booster pump for not much more than those 2 pressure tanks, which will not solve your low volume or cycling problems.

 

[Sid Post]

Totally agree on the "big storage tank". I didn't find anyone close to me around here with any storage tanks. After quotes for thousands of dollars for stuff I didn't really need, I didn't go back to ask the drillers about that. I had one guy tell me I needed an elevated storage tank which, would be nice but not at what it costs for this homeowner. If I win the lottery, still not likely.

A series of IBC's won't work either as they will grow algae in the Texas sun. The sprayer tanks are the same way since they are clear as well to see the load of chemicals or fertilizer in them. A dark tank of hundreds of gallons isn't a common sight in this part of the world.

I won't run a well on a closed system without a pressure tank. Period. Sure it will work for a little while but, it's not like burning out a ~$50 pump on a fish tank either. Running "open" to a pond or tank of hundreds of gallons, sure. If I had a 2500-gallon tank to dump into for the household use, I would consider skipping the dual pressure tanks and would look into booster pumps and other pressure solutions.

Next time we get some big fish tanks in, I will likely add a large storage tank and a booster pump for non-household use. Last time, a 2500-gallon storage tank was ~$1200 so, total costs for both are comparable. With low flow toilets, showers, and an HE washing machine, I'm hopeful the house will have adequate water flow and pressure without stressing or burning out the well pump. Larger pressure tanks are what everyone around here uses so, that's all I really had to choose from in the near term.

A 20-gallon Challenger versus a pair of 86-gallon WX-302's should help significantly with well pump cycling since I have a much bigger drawdown and the well pump will run longer to refill them with fewer starts and stops. Granted, its not a CSV but it should approximate the effect. If not, it looks like a CSV is only $200.

I'm hopeful that when I shower and brush my teeth in the morning, the well pump never kicks in with ~46-gallons of water available. Same for several loads of laundry or a load of dishes. It will be interesting to learn how long it takes to recharge the pressure tanks when the well pump kicks in.

For unrelated reasons, I'm running new wire to the wellhead. So with everything opened up, I will likely also run a larger water line to the house to help with "volume" delivery. If I need a booster tank for pressure, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

 

[Valveman]

so household water doesn't go to zero if I run wide open to the pond and fish tanks.

A CSV is not going to help with this problem. The only thing that will help is to have a pump large enough to supply the amount of water being used. With a larger pump, a CSV would be very helpful.

I don't see having two big pressure tanks as any benefit. The only reason people around you still use big pressure tanks is because they are still living with really old technology. There have been much better ways to control pumps for a long time now. With 46 gallons of drawdown and a 5 GPM pump, it will take 8-9 minutes to fill the tanks. That is not really helping anything. And if you are only pumping 5 GPM because this is a low producing well, not just a low producing pump, then refilling the 46 gallons in the tanks, after using water for showers and other things, could cause the well to be pumped dry when trying to refill the tanks.

It doesn't hurt for your pump to cycle when brushing your teeth or even flushing a toilet. Those are very low water use events. But when filling a pond, running a sprinkler, or anything long term is being used, cycling for hours like that is what destroys pump quickly.

An elevated storage tank would need to be at least 115' above ground to get 50 PSI. That would be very expensive and not practical. Water towers are ancient technology that was used by the Greeks and Romans 3000+ years ago. Water towers are even outdated for city use, as cites that use newer technology do not even have water towers.

I wouldn't waste my money on big pressure tanks. A 44 gallon size tank is actually twice as large as needed for a 5 GPM pump. You won't be able to over cycle that pump with a 44 gallon size tank, the well will not pump dry while refilling the tank, and you won't be at low pressure for as long waiting for the pump to start and pressure to increase.

Again, I would never be happy with only 5 GPM supply with all those uses for water. "Household" water pressure is going to be low or zero when using any water for irrigation or filling a pond. And I am pretty sure that is the problem you are trying to solve.

 

[Sid Post]

My friends well is a less than a mile away and on a 3HP well pump, he gets 37GPM but he is also at a shallower depth. If I must, I will update the well pump but, first I'm going to put in the pressure tanks and see how that performs. Wiring and new PVC lines shouldn't make a big difference but, it could. When I get the new control box and power sorted, I plan on testing it with an "open" wellhead run to measure water flow, however, well pump curves at what I believe my depth is confirms 5GPM is the right flow range.

I plan on getting a storage tank when I can at a reasonable price so, I could always refill it at night and put a big booster pump on it to meet non-household needs if it does not work reasonably well as is.

5GPM is not ideal for a house IMHO but, with all the low flow water technology, it should be workable without too many compromises in my life. I can always delay a dishwasher or clothes washing machine for overnight runs. Toilets, showers, sinks, etc. should be okay if pressure isn't a problem. If non-household use kills the water pressure or water flow, making them mutually exclusive isn't really good but, it is workable until I do something better whether a new well pump, storage tank, or even a new well. The main thing is that I will have water in my house again at the end of next week. If it turns out I don't really need the second tank, it isn't going to be wasted, only repurposed.

Dual or a really large single pressure tank may turn out not to be the best solution for my situation. However, the second tank while being relatively expensive isn't terribly expensive either. If it turns out I really don't need it, when my friend drills his second well it will most likely end up there, saving him $1200 which is what his last Flexcon 110-gallon tank from the driller cost him.

 

[Valveman]

I'll say it one more time, large pressure tanks are a complete waste of money, ESPECIALLY with a 5 GPM pump.

 

[Sid Post]

I'll say it one more time, large pressure tanks are a complete waste of money, ESPECIALLY with a 5 GPM pump.

I respectfully disagree as do the water well drillers around here. My little tank probably worked well for the elderly widowed lady that watered her tomatoes with it from a 1/2" hose bib but, the results of my use are hard to argue.

It looks like my use short cycled and hammered things until the control box failed. I never really thought of a control box as a fusable link but, replacing a $60~$100 control box is a whole lot better then replacing a dead well pump.

The solutions from local sources were in the thousands of dollars. None of them suggested a CSV however. If I need to repurpose one of the two tanks because it doesn't do what every other system within a few miles of me does, I will and I will look again at a CSV solution or large storage tank option (which seems the best for my larger 'agricultural uses' and will likely happen this summer).

 

[Valveman]

I respectfully disagree as do the water well drillers around here. My little tank probably worked well for the elderly widowed lady that watered her tomatoes with it from a 1/2" hose bib but, the results of my use are hard to argue.

Your pump is only large enough to run one 1/2" hose bib, no matter if you are an elderly widow or a family of 12. The size of the tank will make absolutely no difference except to lighten your pocket book and make the drillers pocket book heavier.

I would not use any larger than a 44 gallon size tank with a 5 GPM pump, even without a CSV.

Water doesn't come from the pressure tank, it comes from the well and pump. The only thing a pressure tank does is keep the pump from cycling on and off too much. A 44 gallon size tank will give you twice the cycle time recommended by the pump manufacturer. A couple of big tanks just causes the pump to cycle 7-8 times less than recommended. Those big tanks won't give you any more water or make the pump last longer by enough to justify the added expense.

I am a well driller so I can talk about them. And I am not saying anything I wouldn't say directly to these other drillers face when I say, they are just squeezing you and everyone else for more money putting on such large tanks on such a small pump.