Deep Well DIY

[carve200]

Ive spent several hours reading threads here and haven't found these questions specifically addressed, so thought I would post them. If they are already reviewed feel free to link me to them. They are related to dole valves in a well with a variant static water height and stainless wire as a safety rope but which is actually used to pull the pump.

What led to this is I have 2 wells. One 50' deep and drilled near spring which will flow out the top of the casing in the spring time. This well is great and I have a 1/2hp with a CSV hooked up to it and can pull it by hand in no time. If I'm not careful during a drought this well will get over pumped and burn up the pump, or would have before i installed the csv and pump monitor. Even with this the pump may be saved, but the cows still need water, which leads to the second well.

There is also a 600+ foot well (i bought the property with both these wells and i dont know the total depth but i pulled the pump from 615') The deep well has manganese in the water so I dont prefer it be the main well on the property. They are hooked together even though they are about 800ft apart. The original pump in that well was already working intermittently when i installed a csv on it. Got another 6 months out of it, before I had to pull it. It was written in well pit that pump was at 190', so i thought a friend and i could pull it by hand together. Nope. Took most of two days using a backhoe and slip knots in heavy rope to lift 12ft at a time and found it was 615'. Which led me to say to myself there has to be a better way to do this. First I looked at this http://wellhose.com/ which seems great but my 600' drop was something like $3200 for the hose. It was a mixture of galvanized and pvc that came out of the hole. Then i discovered the 250psi poly pipe than comes in 500ft rolls. This is enough psi to about match the 500ft depth. From there you could add schedule 80 pvc to the bottom. At least this way you get to pull 500ft continuous over a roller. The other thought I had was to use stainless steel wire where some put safety rope, but actually use it to lift with a winch. 3/16 should have a 3800lb breaking strength and i estimate the weight of my pump, water and poly pipe to be about 700lbs. So its in the standard 5/1 safety rating. The weight was a lot more before with all the galvanized. Ive seen the other thread here about why to not use poly rope, but couldn't find this addressed. Any thoughts about why this is a bad idea. Maybe Im overthinking for something you dont do everyday, but for a system that has to have water it seems like a good way to be able to get a pump out and being worked on in an hour or so.

Second scenario involves the same well. It is now spring time and the static water height in that well is 25ft. I dont have a full picture of how much the water height varies during drought, but I gather from neighbors that have similar depth wells that it does vary rather significantly. If the goal here is to make sure i have access to water for animals during a drought is it still best to put the pump at the bottom and use a dole valve to limit the flow when the static water height is high? Previous owner claims deep well had a 3gpm recharge, but he also told me pump was 190' down so dont know if its accurate. It appears to be too much of a differential for a dole valve to handle. What is the best practice in this case? Im leaning towards putting the pump with an appropriate pump curve for the depth at 500' with a dole valve in the well house and see how the dole valve holds up. This would get me to the max depth that poly can handle and negate the need for the stainless steel wire. You would lose 150 gallons or so of reserve capacity from not going the full depth, but I doubt the well goes below that static even in a drought. There is also a dry pump cutoff and csv on this well. I recognize I could put a pump at 200' and usually have water and not have pressure differential problems, but the main goal here is to make sure water is available when it may not be somewhere else.

 

[Valveman]

When restricting with a 3 gpm Dole valve or a CSV the pipe will have max pressure the pump can build. What pump are you using?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[carve200]

When restricting with a 3 gpm Dole valve or a CSV the pipe will have max pressure the pump can build. What pump are you using?

Well I calculated the TDH at 675 worst case at 500' and 200 TDH at my current 25ft static height and was considering a 7GS10, which efficiency range ends at 500TDH. I cant tell from the pump curve if it would pump all the way down to the 500, but my guess is no. The 7GS15 would get me to my 500 depth, but am unsure what its peak pressure is to know if it would overpower the dole valve. I tried to look up some markings on the old pump but havent determined what it is yet. Either way I need to get a new pump, and am more interested in the math than what was there. TDH at 600ft would be 775.

Here are the Goulds pump curves, though I am not stuck on that brand. https://www.pumpproducts.com/media/...GPM, Submersible Pumps Technical Brochure.pdf

 

[Reach4]

I cant tell from the pump curve if it would pump all the way down to the 500, but my guess is no.

Is the pipe open above ground? No pressure tank or pressure switch?

Even the 7GS10 would bring up water from 500 ft.

Goulds 7 GPM

You want a flow inducer shroud on that pump.

 

[LLigetfa]

The other thought I had was to use stainless steel wire where some put safety rope, but actually use it to lift with a winch. 3/16 should have a 3800lb breaking strength and i estimate the weight of my pump, water and poly pipe to be about 700lbs.

You need to think this through. Winching on a cable attached at the pump is essentially pushing the poly pipe from the bottom. It is like pushing a rope. Not going to happen.

 

[Fitter30]

That pump your looking at shut off at 500' is 10 lbs but the chart only goes to 360'- 60 psi. Good possibility that would over heat the pump by not moving enough water. And there will be more pipe added from well head to wherever so flow would be 0.

 

[carve200]

Is the pipe open above ground? No pressure tank or pressure switch?

Even the 7GS10 would bring up water from 500 ft.

Goulds 7 GPMView attachment 62641

I wonder how it would be if you put an 8 or 9 gpm Dole valve right above the pump, that would save the pipe from seeing the high pressures. Would the Dole valve ever see more than 200 psi across it? I am not sure. Am I using the 200 max spec on the Dole valve correctly? I don't know. There is a good chance that I am not.

You want a flow inducer shroud on that pump.

Yes, it has a csv valve and pressure tank set at 50 psi. It does not need to be set at 50, though it does need a little bit of pressure to push water through a few thousand feet of poly to the different cattle troughs. Right now set at 50 is almost to high for the trough valves so i may turn it down some anyway.

If Im reading the chart right 7gs15 looks ideal for low water level, but it also appears it would over pressure the dole valve at high water. Which is where Im a little stuck on best course of action. If im reading that right the 7gs15 is capable of almost 300psi at cutoff?

 

[carve200]

You need to think this through. Winching on a cable attached at the pump is essentially pushing the poly pipe from the bottom. It is like pushing a rope. Not going to happen.

You may be right with water in it, but its not quite like pushing on a rope, as I have pushed 500ft of poly through 4" corrugated pipe on the horizontal when running lines to different locations. And while slightly annoying it can be done. I guess i was also more considering that i would still pull on the poly also, and that maybe hand power would be enough if there was push from the bottom also. Any reason not to do this with hard pipe though?

 

[carve200]

That pump your looking at shut off at 500' is 10 lbs but the chart only goes to 360'- 60 psi. Good possibility that would over heat the pump by not moving enough water. And there will be more pipe added from well head to wherever so flow would be 0.

So with a 7gs10 maybe a booster pump that would come on at a low pressure like 15 would get this in the range where the dole valve could handle high water and the booster pump would help out if the water ever got down to 500 feet. I dont know the gpm of the previous pump that died but it was a 1.5hp set at 615'. It could push my pressure gauge past 200(as high as the gauge went) if i adjusted the csv to low, so my guess is that it was somewhere in the 7 - 10gpm range.

 

[Valveman]

A 7GS15 will build 294 PSI (680'). A 7GS10 can build 233 PSI (540') You need about 180' of head (77 PSI) up top for the pump to safely get to 60 PSI so the pressure switch can shut off the pump. That means even the 7GS15 cannot build to 60 as needed if the water level gets below 500'. But the 7GS15 would work great as the water level drops from 25' to 500'. It will still pump enough water to work safely down to 615', but you would have to manually turn the pump on or off and not use the pressure tank.

The lower you adjust the CSV the more differential pressure across the CSV. We only recommend about 125 PSI differential across the CSV1A. With the 7GS15 that can build 680' of head and a static of 25', the inlet pressure on the CSV will be 283 PSI, If you set the CSV1A for say 40 PSI, that would be a differential across the CSV of 243 PSI. In these cases we just use two of the CSV1A valves in series. The first will see the 283 coming in and be set to deliver 150 PSI out. The second CSV1A will see the 150 PSI coming in and will deliver the 40 PSI constant pressure you want. In this way we are splitting up the high pressure between two of the CSV1A valves and they will last a long time.

With the friction loss of a CSV1A being about 15 PSI, two of the CSV1A valves would hold the pump back by 30 PSI or 69' of head. Starting the pump at 30 PSI using a 30/50 switch will hold back another 30 PSI (69'). Then you can add the 25' static level to those to get a minimum head of 163'. That is almost enough head that you wouldn't need a Dole valve to prevent upthrust. Using a 50/70 pressure switch you would not need the Dole valve. But I would limit the 7GS15 to 10 GPM with a Dole valve when using a 30/50 switch. Placing the Dole valve after the two CSV1A valves it will only see the 40 PSI ftom the controlling CSV and will work fine.

Now, anyway you do this with a CSV there will be 294 PSI on the pipe. 250# pipe should be fine as burst pressure is 2-5 times the rated pressure. Long metal barb fittings and at least two clamps each would be needed. A setting of 500' is all you can really do if you plan on using a pressure switch for control. You will need to tape the cable to the pipe along with the pump wire. You will have a tangled mess if you leave the cable loose. Pipe, wire, and cable will roll over a roller and across the ground or to a spool.

Another option is to go from the deep well to a storage or cistern tank. This would take all the pressure off the pipe, the pump could be set as deep as 615', and would still pump water to the cistern if water got that deep. At 615' water level there would still be 266 PSI on the pipe, but again you should be OK. A booster pump in the cistern can use the CSV and work at 30/50 no problem. The shallow well with the CSV could be set to 40/60, which would make it the primary and first pump to run. A Cycle Sensor on the shallow well would turn the pump off when the well went dry, and the pressure would drop to 30 PSI and start the booster from the cistern. A good size cistern would give you more stored water, and could buy you some time to get the deep well fixed if it went out. Just have to set an alarm to notice if the cistern gets a little low, so you start looking for the problem before the cistern is empty.

 

[carve200]

A 7GS15 will build 294 PSI (680'). A 7GS10 can build 233 PSI (540') You need about 180' of head (77 PSI) up top for the pump to safely get to 60 PSI so the pressure switch can shut off the pump. That means even the 7GS15 cannot build to 60 as needed if the water level gets below 500'. But the 7GS15 would work great as the water level drops from 25' to 500'. It will still pump enough water to work safely down to 615', but you would have to manually turn the pump on or off and not use the pressure tank.

The lower you adjust the CSV the more differential pressure across the CSV. We only recommend about 125 PSI differential across the CSV1A. With the 7GS15 that can build 680' of head and a static of 25', the inlet pressure on the CSV will be 283 PSI, If you set the CSV1A for say 40 PSI, that would be a differential across the CSV of 243 PSI. In these cases we just use two of the CSV1A valves in series. The first will see the 283 coming in and be set to deliver 150 PSI out. The second CSV1A will see the 150 PSI coming in and will deliver the 40 PSI constant pressure you want. In this way we are splitting up the high pressure between two of the CSV1A valves and they will last a long time.

With the friction loss of a CSV1A being about 15 PSI, two of the CSV1A valves would hold the pump back by 30 PSI or 69' of head. Starting the pump at 30 PSI using a 30/50 switch will hold back another 30 PSI (69'). Then you can add the 25' static level to those to get a minimum head of 163'. That is almost enough head that you wouldn't need a Dole valve to prevent upthrust. Using a 50/70 pressure switch you would not need the Dole valve. But I would limit the 7GS15 to 10 GPM with a Dole valve when using a 30/50 switch. Placing the Dole valve after the two CSV1A valves it will only see the 40 PSI ftom the controlling CSV and will work fine.

Now, anyway you do this with a CSV there will be 294 PSI on the pipe. 250# pipe should be fine as burst pressure is 2-5 times the rated pressure. Long metal barb fittings and at least two clamps each would be needed. A setting of 500' is all you can really do if you plan on using a pressure switch for control. You will need to tape the cable to the pipe along with the pump wire. You will have a tangled mess if you leave the cable loose. Pipe, wire, and cable will roll over a roller and across the ground or to a spool.

Another option is to go from the deep well to a storage or cistern tank. This would take all the pressure off the pipe, the pump could be set as deep as 615', and would still pump water to the cistern if water got that deep. At 615' water level there would still be 266 PSI on the pipe, but again you should be OK. A booster pump in the cistern can use the CSV and work at 30/50 no problem. The shallow well with the CSV could be set to 40/60, which would make it the primary and first pump to run. A Cycle Sensor on the shallow well would turn the pump off when the well went dry, and the pressure would drop to 30 PSI and start the booster from the cistern. A good size cistern would give you more stored water, and could buy you some time to get the deep well fixed if it went out. Just have to set an alarm to notice if the cistern gets a little low, so you start looking for the problem before the cistern is empty.

View attachment 62650

Thanks for this. So I assume I need to specify the high pressure version when I order the second csv1a? While I like the cistern idea, the second csv and dole valve i think can be done cheaper and faster. I will certainly think about cistern locations for the future.

I also assume I don't need a second pressure tank. I attached a photo of the well pit, which is getting tight, but there is still room for a second csv.

 

[Fitter30]

A 7GS15 will build 294 PSI (680'). A 7GS10 can build 233 PSI (540') You need about 180' of head (77 PSI) up top for the pump to safely get to 60 PSI so the pressure switch can shut off the pump. That means even the 7GS15 cannot build to 60 as needed if the water level gets below 500'. But the 7GS15 would work great as the water level drops from 25' to 500'. It will still pump enough water to work safely down to 615', but you would have to manually turn the pump on or off and not use the pressure tank.

The lower you adjust the CSV the more differential pressure across the CSV. We only recommend about 125 PSI differential across the CSV1A. With the 7GS15 that can build 680' of head and a static of 25', the inlet pressure on the CSV will be 283 PSI, If you set the CSV1A for say 40 PSI, that would be a differential across the CSV of 243 PSI. In these cases we just use two of the CSV1A valves in series. The first will see the 283 coming in and be set to deliver 150 PSI out. The second CSV1A will see the 150 PSI coming in and will deliver the 40 PSI constant pressure you want. In this way we are splitting up the high pressure between two of the CSV1A valves and they will last a long time.

With the friction loss of a CSV1A being about 15 PSI, two of the CSV1A valves would hold the pump back by 30 PSI or 69' of head. Starting the pump at 30 PSI using a 30/50 switch will hold back another 30 PSI (69'). Then you can add the 25' static level to those to get a minimum head of 163'. That is almost enough head that you wouldn't need a Dole valve to prevent upthrust. Using a 50/70 pressure switch you would not need the Dole valve. But I would limit the 7GS15 to 10 GPM with a Dole valve when using a 30/50 switch. Placing the Dole valve after the two CSV1A valves it will only see the 40 PSI ftom the controlling CSV and will work fine.

Now, anyway you do this with a CSV there will be 294 PSI on the pipe. 250# pipe should be fine as burst pressure is 2-5 times the rated pressure. Long metal barb fittings and at least two clamps each would be needed. A setting of 500' is all you can really do if you plan on using a pressure switch for control. You will need to tape the cable to the pipe along with the pump wire. You will have a tangled mess if you leave the cable loose. Pipe, wire, and cable will roll over a roller and across the ground or to a spool.

Another option is to go from the deep well to a storage or cistern tank. This would take all the pressure off the pipe, the pump could be set as deep as 615', and would still pump water to the cistern if water got that deep. At 615' water level there would still be 266 PSI on the pipe, but again you should be OK. A booster pump in the cistern can use the CSV and work at 30/50 no problem. The shallow well with the CSV could be set to 40/60, which would make it the primary and first pump to run. A Cycle Sensor on the shallow well would turn the pump off when the well went dry, coming up with and the pressure would drop to 30 PSI and start the booster from the cistern. A good size cistern would give you more stored water, and could buy you some time to get the deep well fixed if it went out. Just have to set an alarm to notice if the cistern gets a little low, so you start looking for the problem before the cistern is empty.

View attachment 62650

7GS15 pump where are coming up with these pressures the way i see it at 500' - 3.9 gpm thats at max depth recommended.

 

[Valveman]

Thanks for this. So I assume I need to specify the high pressure version when I order the second csv1a? While I like the cistern idea, the second csv and dole valve i think can be done cheaper and faster. I will certainly think about cistern locations for the future.

I also assume I don't need a second pressure tank. I attached a photo of the well pit, which is getting tight, but there is still room for a second csv.

The standard CSV1A is adjustable from 15 to 150 PSI. So, just order one set to 150 PSI and set the one you have to 40 PSI to work with your 30/50 switch. One pressure tank is still all you need.

 

[Valveman]

7GS15 pump where are coming up with these pressures the way i see it at 500' - 3.9 gpm thats at max depth recommended.

7GS15 shows a shut off head of 680', which is 294 PSI. Book says the recommended range is 1.5 to 10 GPM for that pump. Not much difference in head at shut off and 1.5 GPM. However, it will work fine down to about 0.5 GPM as well. Even a 5HP will stay cool at 3.9 GPM. Pumps will work safely at much lower flow rate than recommended in the books.

 

[Fitter30]

https://www.slpipe.com/product/drop-pipe/
max length of pvc pipe look at drop pipe chart
500' is 216.4 lbs of water pressure at the end
max length of hose from wellhose is 300'
Why not look at a 3 hp pump like a gould 10gs30

 

[Valveman]

The well only makes 3 GPM. A 10GS30 can build 880' of head or 381 PSI. Even with a 10 GPM Dole valve it will make 303 PSI on the pipe. The 10GS20 will build about the same pressure as the 7GS15 if more volume is needed.

 

[carve200]

https://www.slpipe.com/product/drop-pipe/
max length of pvc pipe look at drop pipe chart
500' is 216.4 lbs of water pressure at the end
max length of hose from wellhose is 300'
Why not look at a 3 hp pump like a gould 10gs30

I assume the max length of hose from wellhouse is related to meeting the minimum flow requirements. While i recognize the math behind this, in reality I tend to view the system after the csv as separate. i.e. I have 40psi to move water wherever it goes from there. Yes it is possible that at the end of my several 1000' runs that i could use more than the flow rate through all that pipe, but if I am effectively just filling a bucket at the end of the line then the bucket just fills a little slower. The system is currently running off the shallow well and at the furthest run (maybe 3000ft), i dont see any noticeable decline in flow when opening a spigot.

I guess im not sure I see what the benefit of a 10gs30 would be or even the 10gs20 unless I had specific requirements to get 10gpm at certain times. I see the drawbacks of a heavier pump, which the chart you sent says it cant hang on pvc, the additional electricity, and I would guess I would need to replace my wiring down the well for the additional horsepower. Possibly the wiring back to the panel box also. That would be pricey. I would imagine I could fund the cistern instead with those additional costs.

 

[carve200]

It feels like a lot longer than two months since I started this thread. Anyway, thought I would provide some feedback for anyone else looking to do something similar as I put the pump in yesterday. Forgot to take any pictures though.

I bought a 500ft roll of 250 psi poly pipe: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Advance...-NSF-Poly-Pipe-in-Blue-X4-125250500/205909088
Something that took me little bit to figure out is that the high pressure poly pipe gets its extra wall thickness from the internal diameter. 1 1/4 pipe in this case had a 1" internal which was a perfect tight fit to my 1" barbed fittings. required some heat and tapping with rubber mallet to seat.

I also did attach 3/16 stainless steel cable to the pump. I didnt tape it every ten feet but i did tape it fairly often. It just seems like cheap insurance and I used the cable to lower the pump into place. When the pump was almost down I did an experiment and went in reverse, and I was able to pull the poly back up by hand as long as the cable was holding just a portion of the weight. I layed the poly, wire, and cable out across the field this time, but if I ever need to pull the pump again I would plan to use a reel to wind everything up together, but i do think I could pull this again without a reel if something was tensioning the cable while i hand pulled the poly and wire. i guess you could turn it into a pretzel if you just hooked the cable to a truck and started driving, but with a little pull on all the parts i dont see how it gets tangled.

i did go with the 7gs15 and just today ordered the second csv valve as discussed above, so i havent put the system into operation yet though i did do a quick check to make sure the pump worked. There is a check valve above ground in this system, which was meant to prevent any back flow between the two wells, but after reading further here, it sounds like the check valve at each pump should be sufficient so when i put the second csv valve in I will plan to remove that check valve.

If this was a new well, i think that carys cistern idea would be a good option and should a good tank come along I think it would still be worthwhile for me to pursue. In my case this was the fastest most cost efficient way to get up and running in what i think should still be a reliable scenario. The poly in the well makes everything so much easier. Since it is so easy to take in and out I would be tempted to experiment with it up to 700', as if it did have a blow out it could be pulled and repaired in a very short time. I guess commercial well drillers have the tools to pull hard pipe pretty quick, but it still seems like I could roll this setup onto a reel before there would be time to set wrenches and unscrew the first two sticks of hard pipe. Maybe I need to go watch a hard pipe pull and see what Im missing.

 

[Reach4]

I bought a 500ft roll of 250 psi poly pipe: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Advance...-NSF-Poly-Pipe-in-Blue-X4-125250500/205909088
Something that took me little bit to figure out is that the high pressure poly pipe gets its extra wall thickness from the internal diameter. 1 1/4 pipe in this case had a 1" internal which was a perfect tight fit to my 1" barbed fittings. required some heat and tapping with rubber mallet to seat.

That is CTS sized pipe, which has OD at 1/8 inch plus the nominal size. As you observed, inside varies.

For well work, SIDR pipe is more commonly used. The ID is held constant, and the OD varies, so it uses the same barbed fittings for the different ratings. So it is reasonable that your 1.125 CTS size pipe was about the same ID as 1 inch SIDR.

With the CSV and the 7GS15, your pipe will see around 295 psi at the bottom, as Valveman said in #10. They build margin into the pipe ratings.

 

[carve200]

There is not an SIDR pipe over 200psi that i could find though. i have thousands of feet of the 200 psi black sidr pipe layed in my horizontal runs. Maybe I was just not looking in the right places for higher pressure sidr? i did see a few manufacturers that would essentially make you whatever you wanted, but you had to order more quantity than i could use in my lifetime.