deep hole comes back next to well

[clynesn]

we have a well about 15 feet from corner of house *built 1986.
apparently when well placed so much water pressure was present that it required a permanent release of water...such that we have a continuous flow of water from a 3 inch metal pipe which comes to the surface and then is exited off via underground pvc piping to a stream about fifty yards away.

There is no visible water leak or excess soaking of the grass currently to suggest any water leaks near the surface

last year a three foot wide and about four foot deep hole (not visible initially...that is formed from below)....developed about 1 foot from the 8 -10"" metal well pipe ...different from the smaller pipe that lets off the excess.

we filled the hole with small rock and it was covered with dirt and mulch. Now my wife went to dig and a six foot deep hole about 1 foot in diameter has recurred...

Any ideas ?

 

[Speedbump]

Sounds to me like this flowing well has found it's way up around the casing.

This could become a serious problem if not addressed soon. The bigger that hole gets, the more flow etc. if that is what is happening.

I've heard some horror stories about runaway flowing wells.

bob...

 

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[Gary Slusser]

Yes you're right in thinking leak although you don't want it to be a leak... lol More than likely it is from the pipe attached to the outlet of the pitless adapter and may be under pressure but it could be the 3" drain line, and that allows the dirt to be removed. The leak has created an underground cavity that will continue to suck up your yard until you fix the leak.

It's good she found this again but, you don't want posies bushes tress etc. planted around a well; it's really not a good idea. Paint the casing green or get one of those fake rock well covers etc. but don't plant around a well. If you do and have to get into the well, all plants must go and their roots can cause problems. You'll have to dig until you find where the water is coming form and then fix the leak. Check under the line going to the house and careful you don't damage or cut it with a shovel etc..

Gary
Quality Water Associates

 

[clynesn]

thanks , question gary

the drain line comes off the top of the metal casing (above ground)...no leak there...always condensation from cold water

I have the metal casing and then a plastic about 8-10 inch pvc (green) pipe that comes to the surface and is topped by a white plastic cap. This pipe is about six feet away from the metal casing pipe and closer to the house. Would the pitless adapter come off the metal casing ? if so the hole which is about five deep must be approaching it. I am in southern new york and I suspect frost line can't be any deeper than that.

what exactly is the other 8-10 inch pipe for....I have opened it in past and it has water I believe.


I spoke with the company that put the well in....they said "just fill the whole with rock again"...given the unusual water pressure issue I don't think they want to investigate.

Main question is am I likely to find the pitless adapter at six feet down on the casing ?

thanks neville

Yes you're right in thinking leak although you don't want it to be a leak... lol More than likely it is from the pipe attached to the outlet of the pitless adapter and may be under pressure but it could be the 3" drain line, and that allows the dirt to be removed. The leak has created an underground cavity that will continue to suck up your yard until you fix the leak.

It's good she found this again but, you don't want posies bushes tress etc. planted around a well; it's really not a good idea. Paint the casing green or get one of those fake rock well covers etc. but don't plant around a well. If you do and have to get into the well, all plants must go and their roots can cause problems. You'll have to dig until you find where the water is coming form and then fix the leak. Check under the line going to the house and careful you don't damage or cut it with a shovel etc..

Gary
Quality Water Associates

 

[Gary Slusser]

IMO you reallly need to get the leak fixed regardless what is leaking, as you see it is getting worse. And depending on how long the well has been there, I'd tell the driller to come check it out.

If you remove the well casing cap and shine a light down the well you'll see a brass piece with a 1" threaded hole in it, that's the pitless. Your water line is connected to that outside the casing.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

 

[clynesn]

dug down gently

at the bottomof the whole, quite close to the casing I hit some water, not suprising here as I was about four feet down.....when watching the wate I noticed some movement and intermmittent bubbles,,,,some about a walnut size.

the well man just wants me to fill the whole with gravel...he says if I had a whole in the line to the house, my pump which is in the house would be sucking air. I have had some air in the faucets but none recently. water pressure on the gauge in the basement is 50.

The well man does not want to dig around down there says " I told you just fill it".

any comments

 

[Speedbump]

Kind of a bossy well guy isn't he?

Do you have one pipe coming into the house to the pump or two pipes?

You indicated earlier a pipe coming from the well somewhere discharging a constant flow of water. Is this a flowing well or did I miss my guess?

If it is a flowing well, it can flow up along side the casing in certain cases.

If this is the case, I would get me another well guy.

bob...

 

[clynesn]

one pipe or two...flowing well

yes this is a flowing well. many gallons exited to stream constantly.

one pipe comes to the pump inside the house.

if the water were coming form the aquifer up the casing ....would you expect the small intermittent bubbles....wouldn't that likely indicate a closer leak to the area I am observing.

If there is a very small leak in the conduit from the casing to the house...maybe filling the hole isn't such a bad idea. digging around could make it worse ....when you have a flowing well is working on this conduit more problematic ?

 

[Speedbump]

The one pipe indicates you have it hooked up shallow well. If the well is flowing good enough you could have a monster hole in the suction line and the pump wouldn't care because of the flow constantly feeding the pump. This could be your leak.

And yes working on a flowing well below ground can be a nightmare. Even with sump pumps, trash pumps etc.

This is probably why your driller said to fill the hole. He didn't wanna mess with it.

bob...

 

[clynesn]

thanks for your help, bottom line

The well man who says he wasn't the actual driller , is coming over but has already told me he'll say the same thing :"fill it"

Given the time to develope the hole, I'll probably do that ...the only other thing I am considering is running a small pump to the surface to join with the already existing overflow (that goes to the stream).

thanks again, neville

 

[Gary Slusser]

There would be no air to suck if the area around the leak is filled with water; and as Bob says, the water in the well is under pressure and will fill your suction line so again, no air to suck. But the air in the water you had awhile ago, that was probably when the leak started or there wasn't so much water running out the 3" overflow line.

IMO this leak and water damage around the well casing is going to continue to get worse until it is identified and fixed. And fall and eventually winter is coming on. A few good shovels and a few buds and a case a beer or two....

Gary
Quality Water Associates

 

[clynesn]

well man came over

He agreed the prudent course of action was to investigate. he offered a backhoe but before ruining the back yard ....I dug down...actually mostly hand digging and removal of the rocks surrounding the casing.

So I got down to the water level. First of all there is a lot of flow as I cannot apprciably change the water level with tow small sump pumps.

My suspicion as that since there is no water coming twoards the house , it is exiting along the underground passage created for the drain pipe (which is actually six inches and travels about forty yards to the stream

The level of the water is just above the pipe coming from the pitless adapter. I assume this is not a coincidence but still worry about a deeper source of the water.

The well man says they usually put in a valve at (or close to) this junction but they didn't ever want to go down there again ...so they didn't place such a valve.

There is a cavity created by the rocks lining the casing and the now gone dirt which holds some of the water as it travels to the drainage pie (I assume).

To actually see if there is a leak at the junction I presume I will need a strong enough pump to lowe the water level below the pipe...right ?

 

[Speedbump]

Makes sense to me. You are going to need a sewage pump (submersible type). I would get one with a vortec impeller that will pass 2" solids so dirt etc. can't plug it up while your working. If you get a mud pump and put a strainer on the end of the suction line, it's going to keep getting plugged up with sticks leaves, mud and other savery items and you won't ever get to the pipe your trying to fix.

bob...

 

[clynesn]

follow up

I ahven't got the pump yet but I had my brother hang me upside down in the whole and when I put my hands alongside the casing it seems pretty certain that the water is coming up from below.

The pump man who was there when the well was dug now admits that they never tried to seal the casing annulus (where it enters the bedrock). they weren't prepared apparently for a flowing well of this magnitude.

The calculation at the time was that of 300 gpm.

So now I am under the impression that this process has been going on for the past 20 years.

There don't appear to be many local drillers who want to get involved. One of the solutions I have read about (see flowing well handbook at the Michigan dept of environmental quality water bureau)...involves placing a larger casing over and doing the cementing that should have been done in the first place.

This of course would contaminate the well, possibly do a lot of water damage to the house, turn off the water for an unknown amount of time and be expensive and only possibly work.

I guesss the risk is that of a blowout.

Any more ideas....?halliburton

 

[Speedbump]

Apparently the Michigan powers to be never tried to drive a pipe over a pipe, but what I get from that after about 10 feet or so is Chinese handcuffs. I used to live there, and they came up with a couple of other doozies like that one over the years.

About the only way I know to plug a well like that is to go to the bottom with a rather large tremmie pipe and pump portland cement down out the bottom and let it come up the sides, of coarse if it's flowing that fast the cement will probably be washed away before it gets a chance to set up.

They have some pretty good peletized products these days for grouting wells, I haven't been involved with them, but maybe they could be pumped down the well pipe. As they get wet they swell up to many times their size and could possibly be the answer.

Like I said earlier, if you don't address this, it could become a real nightmare.

bob...

 

[Gary Slusser]

I think you said you have an overflow 3" metal line from the side of the casing; underground. I would check on it to make sure it is flowing full flow or rusted through or collapsed etc.. A blockage, or rusted out/crushed spot, of any type would allow pressure to build in the well. I suspect that connection or pipe is the cause of the leak as opposed to the drive shoe area of the casing.

I don't think a 3" line can handle 300 gpm. And if you had that much flow, the pressure should be enough to feed a two story house without the use of a pump!

If you have a 6" well, you can divert the flow; a 6" sch 40 elbow fits over it, or use a Fernco elbow to a 6" sch 40 pipe to allow the water out the top of the well so you can dig around the casing to see for sure where the water is coming from. If a 5" well check out other size pipe and Fernco fittings; or a 5" to 6" coupler etc..

And it's now time to tear up the yard and get this fixed or you may be tearing up much more yard working on this well or a new one while you have no water until you do it.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

 

[clynesn]

follow up to gary

I am very appreciative of your time.

To clarify a couple of things.

There are several flowing wells in our neigborhood. Ours hit the highest pressure. I am trying to get the well log but so far to no avail. The stroy goes that when they hit water ...about 200ft down (data not available for sure) ...the water came out the casing in a column above the casing of four feet. it was calculated as 300gpm. It took a back hoe to hold down a four foot section of pipe into the casing while they sealed it.

This 3" pipe extends four feet into the casing (which is about 3 feet above ground level)and then about makes two elbows and extends down into a six inch wide PVC pipe (with air gap)....this must connect under ground to a nother six inche PVC pipe which goes about 40 yards to a stream. At the stream the water exits at a fast flow rate using up about 20% of the diameter of the six inch PVC pipe.

Interstingly the neighbors over flow has stopped in the past couple of years (his went in about the same time as ours).

I will get a larger pump and dig more....but my major concern is that the flow now is clearly away from the house probably via this same bed that the overflow pipe runs ...I can make things much worse...

Any ideas waht the intermittent bubbles represent in the leaking water. These come in bunches every 10-15 secs from different locations around the casing and are about 3/4 "in diameter.

Neville

 

[Speedbump]

I sure can't explain the bubbles Neville. I wish I could be more help, but we're talking about something that can't be seen. I hope it isn't coming up around the casing from the aquifer. You mentioned the backhoe when they sealed it. I have worked on many flowing wells and they are very hard to seal not to mention be able to work in a hole with that kind of flow. 300 per minute is pretty scary to me.


bob..

 

[Gary Slusser]

I'd remove the 3" and go with 6" so I could see what was going on and to remove back pressure. Is the 3" a full pipe? I suspect so but the 6" is only 20%, so you are allowing pressure to build up in the casing, and it will leak anywhere possible. And being so close to the house, you may find the water is or will be getting to and maybe under the house foundation. IMO this is serious and winter is coming.

Gary
Quality Water Associates