Custom Shower

[drury23]

I am framing the shower now as part of a large bathroom renovation. I have a few questions.

1) I am planning to go with a rain shower and therefore need to have the supply line coming from the ceiling. A local plumber suggested building a "drop ceiling" that is just a small soffit hanging from the trusses so that the water line will not be in the attic. However, I have seen some other examples online where it is recommended to just run the water line into the attic and provide blanketed insulation above and to the sides of the water line. I live in Syracuse, NY where it can get very cold in the winters. What is recommended? I would prefer to not have a soffit but am willing to do it if the alternative is not a good idea.

2) I had been looking at Kohler products for the valves. However, the local plumber I talked to did not like Kohler and instead suggested Grohe. I am planning just have a rain shower (from ceiling) and a hand shower (on a column). My plan was to have the hot and cold lines go into a thermostatic valve and then the single line would get split and go to their own volume controls. I like this setup rather than using a diverter. Is this the best setup? Are Kohler valves as good or better than Grohe? See attached diagram.

3) The supply lines are 3/4" but the fixtures will be 1/2". I decided to run 3/4" because I originally wanted to have body sprays in addition and wanted to have enough pressure to handle multiple fixtures. Where should I reduce the 3/4" to 1/2"? Before the thermostatic valve? Between the thermostatic valve and the volume controls? Or after the volume controls? I know Kohler has valves for both 3/4" and 1/2".

4) Lastly, I'm planning to use the Schluter shower system (including the sloped base and Kerdi board on the walls). I was then going to have just regular drywall on the ceiling. Any issues?

Thank you!

 

[Valveman]

I would stay with the 3/4 valves instead of 1/2. I would also not reduce to 1/2 unless I had to, and then at the very last point. You also need to look at the flow and pressure requirement for that shower. Most likely you will need a booster pump and controls to get the amount of water and pressure needed.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadnashua]

1, If the water line is run immediately above the ceiling, and you have a good layer of insulation above it (and there are no gaps or air leaks), the heat from the room will keep the line(s) from freezing as long as the room temperature is kept in a decent range.
2. Personal prejudice regarding Kohler. They tend to change the 'guts' of their fixtures frequently, and it's tough to find parts locally when the time comes. Most other companies use compatible guts, and change the visible parts to follow trends. I have Grohe in my home, and it has been reliable. Plus, parts are fairly easy to come by locally, when needed (only has happened once in 15-years).
3. If you're never going to have both shower heads running at the same time, a 1/2" valve is both less expensive and should work just fine. Some thermostatic valves must have a shutoff before it, some can work with one after. The issue is, as the lines cool off, it's trying to keep the temperature constant while there's also pressure on it. If the valve is before, it still will cycle trying to keep the temp the same, but there's no pressure. ALso, some designs could allow cross-over into the supply of hot to cold. So, you must read the instructions carefully to ensure it is installed properly.
4. Schluter's Kerdi works just fine IF you follow the instructions! Been around for decades. To avoid the need for any caulk in the shower, you might consider using their profiles for changes of plane (between the floor walls, and wall-to-wall). Industry standards call for any change of plane to have movement accommodation (either a gap, flexible caulk, or an engineered profile).

Check out www.johnbridge.com for help with your tiling.

 

[drury23]

Thank you for the replies. Any other opinions on valves (thermostatic) and trim? I am leaning toward Kohler, Grohe, and Moen. Thanks.

 

[Jadnashua]

There's a lot of Delta fixtures out there, and replacement parts are generally both easy to find and often, free from the manufacturer for the original owner. Choose say their R10000 rough-in body, and there are dozens (and probably more) cartridge and trim kits that will work with it so remodeling down the line would just take a new cartridge and trim kit. Big box stores often combine the trim, cartridge, and rough-in in a box, but pro shops sell the rough-in separate from the trim/cartridge to minimize the vast number of combinations they'd have to stock.

 

[drury23]

There's a lot of Delta fixtures out there, and replacement parts are generally both easy to find and often, free from the manufacturer for the original owner. Choose say their R10000 rough-in body, and there are dozens (and probably more) cartridge and trim kits that will work with it so remodeling down the line would just take a new cartridge and trim kit. Big box stores often combine the trim, cartridge, and rough-in in a box, but pro shops sell the rough-in separate from the trim/cartridge to minimize the vast number of combinations they'd have to stock.

It seems that with Delta the only option for a thermostatic valve is a dual thermostatic valve with volume control. I would prefer to have the thermostatic valve with two independent volume controls for the rain shower and then hand shower.

 

[NickK]

You are correct that Delta does not make separate thermostatic and volume controls. They have a dual control lever which can adjust the temperature of water and the volume of water separately. In order to control your rain shower and hand shower, you would also need a diverter. Delta has a new fixture that kind of merges all the controls on to one escutcheon plate. They call them shower controls with integrated diverter. You will have the bottom handles to set the temperature and pressure then the top handle to diverter the water to your hand shower or rain shower. The diverter has multiple settings that let you turn on each spray individually or both sprays at the same time. I think this is what you are going for. You can learn more about Delta Shower System Controls with Integrated Diverter and you'll see that they are actually a pretty good solution

 

[Jadnashua]

FWIW, unless you actually want lower flow (actually, less than the design volume based on the jet sizes), feeding a showerhead with a larger supply than it needs does not increase their output...it just allows them to attain what they need. A showerhead only starts to decrease its output when the inlet volume is less than the outlet volume...otherwise, the outlet will remain constant as the available inlet volume increases or decreases. Now, the pressure applied may cause the showerhead output to differ, but opening and closing a valve does not change the pressure, only the volume available. To work as designed, a shower head needs at LEAST the amount of volume that it can output...more won't make it provide more actual output as it just won't let it pass more unless you upped the supplied pressure, and a valve doesn't do that.

 

[Nakopf]

I'm in the Delta camp. Regardless of what brand/model you choose, it will ultimately fail. Trim will also grow dated as style changes over time. The Delta universal rough-in valve addresses both issues as servicing the valve or changing/ updating the trim is easy.

Since you're remodeling, I'd encourage you to splurge - get the shower, rain shower, side spray, ... the works. The project is already in the thousands, don't skimp on the features that you might miss in the future.