CSV or no CSV? Berkeley/Grundfos/Franklin?

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PaulaK

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I'm pretty set on having the ol' type of the single phase electrical 1 1/2 hp pump down 325-350' on a 366' deep, 85 static, 105 casing, rock well thats 110' from my breaker box. Slight slant downward if any, so no uphill climb involved. Figure 10 gauge, thinking about 44 gal x-trol tank.
someone said if go larger, the pressure in the house would not be up to 60psi till the gallons fill up the tank. Read about CSV's. My well guy said no need for it, waste of money. Just need pump and tank with a pressure switch. Any thoughts to help a single lady figure this stuff out?
While I'm at it, does anyone know how to jimmy up the hose on a portable propane generator so it can go to a 11-14" column pressure of an unground tank? I'd rather have the portable with less to work on than a computerized home stand by with a sub panel, etc., etc.,.
Thanks for your help! MUCH appreciated!
Oh, almost forgot, the pump installer sells Franklin and Berekley. Says Berekley goes 20 some yrs. I was wondering what you think of the Grundfos, like the 10S15-21.
:)
 

Valveman

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I'm pretty set on having the ol' type of the single phase electrical 1 1/2 hp pump down 325-350' on a 366' deep, 85 static, 105 casing, rock well thats 110' from my breaker box. Slight slant downward if any, so no uphill climb involved. Figure 10 gauge, thinking about 44 gal x-trol tank.
someone said if go larger, the pressure in the house would not be up to 60psi till the gallons fill up the tank. Read about CSV's. My well guy said no need for it, waste of money. Just need pump and tank with a pressure switch. Any thoughts to help a single lady figure this stuff out?
While I'm at it, does anyone know how to jimmy up the hose on a portable propane generator so it can go to a 11-14" column pressure of an unground tank? I'd rather have the portable with less to work on than a computerized home stand by with a sub panel, etc., etc.,.
Thanks for your help! MUCH appreciated!
Oh, almost forgot, the pump installer sells Franklin and Berekley. Says Berekley goes 20 some yrs. I was wondering what you think of the Grundfos, like the 10S15-21.
:)

A deep well like this at 350' with a high static of 85' is one of the hardest to do with a CSV. You need a pump large enough to pump from 350' plus 60 PSI, but when the well is full at 85', the backpressure from the CSV will be about 216 PSI with the 10S15-21 you mentioned. The difference between the 216 and the 60 PSI you want is 156 PSI on the CSV. This is a little more than the 125 PSI differential we recommend for the CSV1A, but it will still work. The higher you set the CSV, the less the differential pressure. So if you could live with 70 PSI constant pressure in the house, the differential would only be 146 PSI. Either way it will work, I just think you and the CSV will like the higher pressure better. Setting the CSV at 70 would mean using a 55/75 pressure switch setting with that size tank.

A 44 gallon tank is the bare minimum you would want with that pump if you do not have a CSV. That tank will hold about 12 gallons of water, and when the static is high, that pump will produce about 14 GPM, and you will not get the 1 minute run time needed. With a CSV that tank is plenty large. The backpressure from the CSV would be good for that pump, because at 14 GPM there is not enough pressure against that pump and it will go into an upthrust condition, which is not a good thing. The CSV will keep it from going into upthrust.

If you do not use any water outside, the CSV is not that important except for delivering constant pressure to the showers. But it you use any water outside the CSV will be a "waste of money" for the installer, as it will make the pump last much longer.

My preference would be the Grundfos as it will reduce in amps better when running lower flow rates, and I hear of fewer problems than the others as well.
 

PaulaK

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A deep well like this at 350' with a high static of 85' is one of the hardest to do with a CSV. You need a pump large enough to pump from 350' plus 60 PSI, but when the well is full at 85', the backpressure from the CSV will be about 216 PSI with the 10S15-21 you mentioned. The difference between the 216 and the 60 PSI you want is 156 PSI on the CSV. This is a little more than the 125 PSI differential we recommend for the CSV1A, but it will still work. The higher you set the CSV, the less the differential pressure. So if you could live with 70 PSI constant pressure in the house, the differential would only be 146 PSI. Either way it will work, I just think you and the CSV will like the higher pressure better. Setting the CSV at 70 would mean using a 55/75 pressure switch setting with that size tank.

A 44 gallon tank is the bare minimum you would want with that pump if you do not have a CSV. That tank will hold about 12 gallons of water, and when the static is high, that pump will produce about 14 GPM, and you will not get the 1 minute run time needed. With a CSV that tank is plenty large. The backpressure from the CSV would be good for that pump, because at 14 GPM there is not enough pressure against that pump and it will go into an upthrust condition, which is not a good thing. The CSV will keep it from going into upthrust.

If you do not use any water outside, the CSV is not that important except for delivering constant pressure to the showers. But it you use any water outside the CSV will be a "waste of money" for the installer, as it will make the pump last much longer.

My preference would be the Grundfos as it will reduce in amps better when running lower flow rates, and I hear of fewer problems than the others as well.
Hi Valveman, I am wanting to use the well for irrigation on an acre, so I am heavily considering the cvs. I'm thinking of a 10gpm pump, well draws 6. placing at 340, 80 static. people at that website ur linked with recommended a 20 gal pressure tank with a cvs1a. My installer thinks franklin motor is good, but wondering the model number of grundfos pump that would work, or a gould, or shaeffer. what do you think? do yu know if schaeffer has good pumps? thanks!
 

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A 1.5HP will give you 10 GPM at 50 PSI even when the water level drops to 300'. I would use a 10S15-21 Grundfos. The Franklin is OK, but will have plastic impellers where the Grundfos has Stainless Steel impellers. I also think the 3 wire Grundfos motors are good. And you can use a 20 gallon size tank if you want, but the 4.5 gallon tank that comes with the Pside-Kick kit and has the CSV1A valve you need would be plenty.
 

PaulaK

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A 1.5HP will give you 10 GPM at 50 PSI even when the water level drops to 300'. I would use a 10S15-21 Grundfos. The Franklin is OK, but will have plastic impellers where the Grundfos has Stainless Steel impellers. I also think the 3 wire Grundfos motors are good. And you can use a 20 gallon size tank if you want, but the 4.5 gallon tank that comes with the Pside-Kick kit and has the CSV1A valve you need would be plenty.
 
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Valveman

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The higher the pressure you set it and the deeper to water in the well, the less your pump can produce. The 10S15-21 will give you 72 PSI, and you can set the CSV at 72 PSI, and you would need a 60/80 pressure switch. And because pressure tanks hold less water at the higher pressure, I would use a 20 gallon size tank with the CSV.

Now that pump will still produce 10 GPM at 72 PSI until your water level drops below 234' deep. If the water gets deeper than that the pump will still produce 10 GPM as the pressure decreases. If the water level pulls down to 340', the pump will still produce 10 GPM, but the pressure will drop to 42 PSI.

Or it will still produce 72 PSI if you reduce the flow rate lower than 10 GPM. That pump will still put out 72 PSI from a depth of 340', if you reduce the output to 7 GPM.

If you need 10 GPM at 72 PSI when the water level is down to 340', you would need a 2HP pump like the 10S20-27. However, when the water level is up at 85', that pump will produce 281 PSI backpressure on the CSV. It would require having 2 CSV1A valves back to back to stair step the pressure down to 72 PSI like you want.
 

Boycedrilling

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Here's my take on pump end/motor combinations. If I install a grundfos pump, it gets a grundfos motor. If I install a Berkeley pump, it gets a Pentek motor. If I install a Franklin pump end, it gets a Franklin motor. Why? Warranty, warranty, warranty. One manufacturer involved, no finger pointing if there's a warranty issue.

If the splines strip on the motor to pump connection, and they are not from the same manufacturer, who's fault is it? They'll both say not our fault.

Depending on who is doing the installing, all these products have a 5 year parts warranty on the pump and motor. Most installers warranty their work at least 1 year. From an installers viewpoint I like the fact that Berkeley will reimburse a labor allowance if the is a warranty replacement in the 1st year after installation. I don't believe any of the manufacturers offer the extended 5 year warranty if the installer isn't one of their approved professional installers.
 

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To add to what Boyce is saying, your warranty is only as good as the people you purchase from. A good pump installer can get just about anything he thinks needs to be taken care of warrantied. If you purchase from someone on the Internet, then you will have to go back through the same person to get product warranty. If the company is trying to stay anonymous or if you can't even get a real person to answer the phone, you probably won't have much luck getting anything warrantied either.
 

Craigpump

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To add to what Boyce is saying, your warranty is only as good as the people you purchase from. A good pump installer can get just about anything he thinks needs to be taken care of warrantied. If you purchase from someone on the Internet, then you will have to go back through the same person to get product warranty. If the company is trying to stay anonymous or if you can't even get a real person to answer the phone, you probably won't have much luck getting anything warrantied either.


To take what Valveman says a few steps further.

If you buy a pump or tank from an online dealer, whose going to install it? Most professional pump installers won't so you're stuck with a "handy man" or "uncle Joe", who may or may not know what they're doing.

If it fails, you remove it, send it back for warranty and you're without water for how long?

What if the warranty is denied? Even worse, what if the pump fails due to improper installation?

In the final analysis, you're always better off paying a qualified, licensed, reputable and insured company to do the job.
 

Valveman

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In the final analysis, you're always better off paying a qualified, licensed, reputable and insured company to do the job.

While I fully agree with Craigpump on this, the problem is finding someone who is really "qualified". Pumps are fairly simple machine, but there applications can be very complicated and confusing. I have taked with hundreds, thousands of pump installers over the years, and I am always amazed at how few really understand what they are doing. Most are just doing what they were taught by there father or relative. Others don't even have the luxory of having a relative with experience in business. These rely on what they learn from the companies who supply pumps and equipment. Then all they know is what makes the suppliers and manufacturers the most money, which is rarely in the best interest of the consumer.

I have said this before. If you can find a pump man who really understands what he is doing, he is worth whatever he ask. But since these are few and far between, many times "Uncle Joe" or your brother in law would be a better choice. Either way it is advisable to educated yourself on the subject, as that can help seperate fact from fiction.
 
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