CSV application

[Reach4]

The pumping rate at 40 psi is probably considerably more. We don't know how much the pump output falls as the cut-off pressure is approached.

And most houses seldom use more than 7 gpm as measured by a typical softener that records the peak flow since the last regeneration.

 

[Morrelli]

With a pumping rate of only 7.16 gpm on a 42/62 pressure switch setting as being a likely scenario, this will not support the demand needed by the owner. The current pump falls short of providing the gpm needed for a CSV setting of 60 psi on a 50/70 pressure switch setting.

I dont follow? No 50/70 switch here. Are you suggesting if I put in a csv with a smal PT that i would need a 50/70 switch to.maintain a constant 6o psi? Pump.meets my.needs as is, just dont want the 42 psi drop.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I dont follow? No 50/70 switch here. Are you suggesting if I put in a csv with a smal PT that i would need a 50/70 switch to.maintain a constant 6o psi?

People read "50/70" in your original post. So while you modified that later, it is easy to miss the change.

Pump.meets my.needs as is, just dont want the 42 psi drop.

Where do you get a 42 psi drop?

 

[LLigetfa]

I put in a csv with a smal PT that i would need a 50/70 switch to.maintain a constant 6o psi?

Yes, that is how a CSV works. You need to ascertain if the pump can deliver the needed GPM at 60 PSI.

 

[Bannerman]

No 50/70 switch here.

For clarification, your initial post stated:

- 1HP submersible pump, located at ? feet within a 509' deep well. No static water level was specified.
- 56 gallon pressure tank
- 50/70 pressure range
- 13.5 GPM continuous delivery for 1-hr, then 7.5 GPM continuous for 3-hrs.
- no mention if the pump continued to cycle OFF/ON while supplying 13.5 or 7.5 GPM.

You later changed the specs to:
- 86 gallon pressure tank with 21 gallons drawdown
- 40/60 psi pressure range

As there was no further mention regarding the pump, well or flow rate, are we to understand the pump and well specifications remain as originally stated, and the 13.5 GPM and the 7.5 GPM rates continue to be correct, or is all or some of that information also now incorrect?

 

[Morrelli]

For clarification, your initial post stated:

- 1HP submersible pump, located at ? feet within a 509' deep well. No static water level was specified.
- 56 gallon pressure tank
- 50/70 pressure range
- 13.5 GPM continuous delivery for 1-hr, then 7.5 GPM continuous for 3-hrs.
- no mention if the pump continued to cycle OFF/ON while supplying 13.5 or 7.5 GPM.

You later changed the specs to:
- 86 gallon pressure tank with 21 gallons drawdown
- 40/60 psi pressure range

As there was no further mention regarding the pump, well or flow rate, are we to understand the pump and well specifications remain as originally stated, and the 13.5 GPM and the 7.5 GPM rates continue to be correct, or is all or some of that information also now incorrect?

Sorry for the confusion. I had recently installed a second pump for irrigation only to give our domestic well a break and i was mixing the two up. The setup in question is a 1hp submersible in a 500 foot well with the pump set at 125'. Static at 72' , and, in fact, recent test showed 13.5 first hour and 7.1 (not 7.5 - i looked at report) gpm at 2nd, 3rd and 4th hour. The pressure tank is 86 gallon with 21 gallon draw down, 42/62 switch. I've never run out of water and before install a second pump for irrigation i use to run 16 different zones back to back without issue. I do not know if the PT was cycling on/off during the well test at 13.5 or 7.1 as I wasn't there when the test was being done. Lastly the "42 psi drop" drop I reffered to is the pressure just before cut in. Much prefer the 60 psi shower. What am I failing to provide here to assure a csv may or.may not be a smart move?

 

[Valveman]

Sorry for the confusion. I had recently installed a second pump for irrigation only to give our domestic well a break and i was mixing the two up. The setup in question is a 1hp submersible in a 500 foot well with the pump set at 125'. Static at 72' , and, in fact, recent test showed 13.5 first hour and 7.1 (not 7.5 - i looked at report) gpm at 2nd, 3rd and 4th hour. The pressure tank is 86 gallon with 21 gallon draw down, 42/62 switch. I've never run out of water and before install a second pump for irrigation i use to run 16 different zones back to back without issue. I do not know if the PT was cycling on/off during the well test at 13.5 or 7.1 as I wasn't there when the test was being done. Lastly the "42 psi drop" drop I reffered to is the pressure just before cut in. Much prefer the 60 psi shower. What am I failing to provide here to assure a csv may or.may not be a smart move?

I am still not sure which size pump you have. 13.5 GPM max would mean a 7 GPM pump. But a 7 GPM, 1HP is made to work at 400'+ depth, and yours is only 125' to the pump. At that depth a 10 GPM, 1HP pump could deliver 10 GPM at 60 PSI. A CSV1A could maintain 60 PSI strong and constant after the tank has emptied and the pump is started. With an 80 gallon tank that delivers 21 gallons of water, a 3 GPM shower would see the pressure drop form 70 to 50 for the first 7 minutes. With a 10 gallon size tank the shower pressure would be at the strong 60 PSI within less than a minute. A CSV1A would work well with this pump as there would only be 160 PSI back pressure.

However, if you have a 7 GPM, 1HP pump, the back pressure from a CSV would be 227 PSI and two of the CSV1A valves would be needed to stair step the pressure down to 60 PSI as needed. But the 7 GPM pump would still supply 8-9 GPM, which should be more than sufficient for two showers and some change.

I am pretty sure waiting on the big tank to cycle is why you are seeing low pressure.

 

[Morrelli]

I am still not sure which size pump you have. 13.5 GPM max would mean a 7 GPM pump. But a 7 GPM, 1HP is made to work at 400'+ depth, and yours is only 125' to the pump. At that depth a 10 GPM, 1HP pump could deliver 10 GPM at 60 PSI. A CSV1A could maintain 60 PSI strong and constant after the tank has emptied and the pump is started. With an 80 gallon tank that delivers 21 gallons of water, a 3 GPM shower would see the pressure drop form 70 to 50 for the first 7 minutes. With a 10 gallon size tank the shower pressure would be at the strong 60 PSI within less than a minute. A CSV1A would work well with this pump as there would only be 160 PSI back pressure.

However, if you have a 7 GPM, 1HP pump, the back pressure from a CSV would be 227 PSI and two of the CSV1A valves would be needed to stair step the pressure down to 60 PSI as needed. But the 7 GPM pump would still supply 8-9 GPM, which should be more than sufficient for two showers and some change.

I am pretty sure waiting on the big tank to cycle is why you are seeing low pressure.

View attachment 106660

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately I cannot identify the pump size other than its a franklin control and when its running its pulling about

I am still not sure which size pump you have. 13.5 GPM max would mean a 7 GPM pump. But a 7 GPM, 1HP is made to work at 400'+ depth, and yours is only 125' to the pump. At that depth a 10 GPM, 1HP pump could deliver 10 GPM at 60 PSI. A CSV1A could maintain 60 PSI strong and constant after the tank has emptied and the pump is started. With an 80 gallon tank that delivers 21 gallons of water, a 3 GPM shower would see the pressure drop form 70 to 50 for the first 7 minutes. With a 10 gallon size tank the shower pressure would be at the strong 60 PSI within less than a minute. A CSV1A would work well with this pump as there would only be 160 PSI back pressure.

However, if you have a 7 GPM, 1HP pump, the back pressure from a CSV would be 227 PSI and two of the CSV1A valves would be needed to stair step the pressure down to 60 PSI as needed. But the 7 GPM pump would still supply 8-9 GPM, which should be more than sufficient for two showers and some change.

I am pretty sure waiting on the big tank to cycle is why you are seeing low pressure.

View attachment 106660

Thanks for the response. I wish I knew what pump was down there. All I know is that it is single phase 230v, that draws about 10 amps per leg after startup spike, which, and i am not a well guy obviously, would suggest I have an oversized pump for this wells production. Probably further support for a csv if that is the case.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately I cannot identify the pump size other than its a franklin control and when its running its pulling about

The Franklin control boxes have different part numbers for different sized motors. But knowing the HP is only part of the story-- the rated gpm is a bigger part.

There is another way to check HP if you can run an ohmmeter on the 3 wires. http://www.terrylove.com/forums/ind...-resistances-with-unknowns.67706/#post-503161 The more precise the ohm measurement is, the better the results. This method also tells you the resistance of the wires to the pump.

If you ever pull the pump for some reason, there will be two labels-- one on the motor, and one for the "wet end". Take photos of both if it comes up. Take photos or notes on whatever new pump goes in if you change pumps.

 

[RetiredInGueydan]

Sorry for the confusion. I had recently installed a second pump for irrigation only to give our domestic well a break and i was mixing the two up. The setup in question is a 1hp submersible in a 500 foot well with the pump set at 125'. Static at 72' , and, in fact, recent test showed 13.5 first hour and 7.1 (not 7.5 - i looked at report) gpm at 2nd, 3rd and 4th hour. The pressure tank is 86 gallon with 21 gallon draw down, 42/62 switch. I've never run out of water and before install a second pump for irrigation i use to run 16 different zones back to back without issue. I do not know if the PT was cycling on/off during the well test at 13.5 or 7.1 as I wasn't there when the test was being done. Lastly the "42 psi drop" drop I reffered to is the pressure just before cut in. Much prefer the 60 psi shower. What am I failing to provide here to assure a csv may or.may not be a smart move?

With your only desire is to have a constant 60 psi shower and are confident that your pump is adequate. I would install a 60 psi pressure regulator valve after the pressure tank and use a 60/80 pressure switch. If you are using a 75 psi pressure relief valve this will need adjustment to prevent leaking. This would be minor changes to your system and not allow the draw down effect to be noticed during usage. I have used this PRV on a 119 gallon pressure tank in a situation like yours with good results.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Cash-Acme-1-in-Threaded-NPT-EB45-Pressure-Regulating-Valve-Metal-Top/5016129543

 

[Bannerman]

I would install a 60 psi pressure regulator valve after the pressure tank and use a 60/80 pressure switch.

A CSV functions as a pressure regulator valve, but unlike a conventional PRV that will close fully to prevent downstream pressure from rising above the pressure setting, a CSV will continue to permit 1 gpm to pass through, even while the downstream pressure exceeds the CSV's pressure setting. The 1 gpm 'leaking' through, will cause the pressure tank to continue filling @ 1 gpm until the pressure switch cut-out pressure is attained.

By locating a PRV after the pressure tank/pressure switch, the pump will always pump water at the maximum flow rate it is capable of achieving. This then requires a large pressure tank, and the repeated maximum >0 > maximum gpm cycling, will often cause the water level within the well to surge.

The CSV will be located between the pump and pressure tank and will therefore limit the pump's discharge rate to match the actual rate of water consumption. This then reduces the size of pressure tank needed, and as the pump will not usually need to pump at maximum capacity, that will reduce the potential for surging the well and drawing the water level down too low.

 

[RetiredInGueydan]

A CSV functions as a pressure regulator valve, but unlike a conventional PRV that will close fully to prevent downstream pressure from rising above the pressure setting, a CSV will continue to permit 1 gpm to pass through, even while the downstream pressure exceeds the CSV's pressure setting. The 1 gpm 'leaking' through, will cause the pressure tank to continue filling @ 1 gpm until the pressure switch cut-out pressure is attained.

By locating a PRV after the pressure tank/pressure switch, the pump will always pump water at the maximum flow rate it is capable of achieving. This then requires a large pressure tank, and the repeated maximum >0 > maximum gpm cycling, will often cause the water level within the well to surge.

The CSV will be located between the pump and pressure tank and will therefore limit the pump's discharge rate to match the actual rate of water consumption. This then reduces the size of pressure tank needed, and as the pump will not usually need to pump at maximum capacity, that will reduce the potential for surging the well and drawing the water level down too low.

The system will function as does currently just at 60/80 psi and a constant 60 psi provided to the demand. A CSV installed to the current system would require a complete change out, only to achieve a steady pressure in the shower.

 

[Valveman]

There is no "complete change out" needed to add a Cycle Stop Valve. The CSV will not reduce the max flow from the pump. If the pump is supplying 7 GPM max, then Cycle Stop Valve or not, using more than 7 GPM will cause pressure to drop dramatically. The only consideration for adding a Cycle Stop Valve is to make sure the pump cannot produce more than about 200 PSI back pressure. You can do a bucket test with a wide open valve. If when first started the pump will supply about 13 GPM, it is a 7 GPM series. If it makes 17-18 GPM, it is a 10 GPM series. Then we can look at a pump curve to find out the max pressure. Or, you can use a ball valve and a pressure gauge. Closing the valve for a few seconds will let you see on the gauge just how much pressure the pump can build.

As long as the pump doesn't build more than about 200 PSI max, adding a CSV would be an easy fix. Yes, the CSV will provide strong constant pressure. But unlike a regular pressure reducing valve, the CSV will also save the pump by eliminating cycles, and allows the use of a much smaller tank. Eliminating water hammer, check valve, pressure switch, control box, and pump failure is just the icing on the cake.

 

[RetiredInGueydan]

There is no "complete change out" needed to add a Cycle Stop Valve. The CSV will not reduce the max flow from the pump. If the pump is supplying 7 GPM max, then Cycle Stop Valve or not, using more than 7 GPM will cause pressure to drop dramatically. The only consideration for adding a Cycle Stop Valve is to make sure the pump cannot produce more than about 200 PSI back pressure. You can do a bucket test with a wide open valve. If when first started the pump will supply about 13 GPM, it is a 7 GPM series. If it makes 17-18 GPM, it is a 10 GPM series. Then we can look at a pump curve to find out the max pressure. Or, you can use a ball valve and a pressure gauge. Closing the valve for a few seconds will let you see on the gauge just how much pressure the pump can build.

As long as the pump doesn't build more than about 200 PSI max, adding a CSV would be an easy fix. Yes, the CSV will provide strong constant pressure. But unlike a regular pressure reducing valve, the CSV will also save the pump by eliminating cycles, and allows the use of a much smaller tank. Eliminating water hammer, check valve, pressure switch, control box, and pump failure is just the icing on the cake.

I didn't realize that just by adding a CSV to his current system would solve his shower pressure issue.

 

[Valveman]

That drop to cut in is what people hate. A constant 50 seems much stronger than an average 50. People tell me the CSV makes it seem like the pressure is higher. It's not. It's just constant instead of average.