CSV application

[Morrelli]

Hi All-
So, domestic well, 1hp submersible, 509 feet deep. Recent 4 hour test, produced 13.5 gpm then dropped to 7.5 for the remaining three hours. Pressure tank (56 gl) at 50/70. Three people in house. I like good pressure showers and so do the other two and often at the same time so there is a significant drop in pressure In this scenario. I have irrigation but it is on a separate pump from a canal thanks to help from this forum. Would a CSV be the answer? Any particular model? Thanks in advance and enjoy the turkey!

 

[Bannerman]

With no CSV, the pressure to your showers/faucets will drop from 70 to 50 psi, then once the pump is activated, the pressure will again rise from 50 to 70 psi. Once the pressure switch shuts off the pump, pressure will again drop, and so these cycles will be repeated for the entire time water is being utilized.

A CSV will reduce the flow rate directly from the pump, to match the exact GPM that is being consumed at any particular time. This is achieved by maintaining a specific pressure after the CSV.

With a CSV, initial water use will again cause pressure to drop from 70 to 50 psi, but once the pump becomes activated, the CSV will maintain 60 psi constant downstream, regardless of whether 1 or multiple showers, faucets or appliances are being utilized at the same time.

Because the CSV is controlling the flow rate to maintain 60 psi downstream, pressure will not rise to 70, and so the pressure switch will not shut off the pump. Once water is no longer being utilized, the CSV will continue to permit 1 gpm to pass through, which will cause the pressure tank to fill until 70 psi is achieved, whereby the pressure switch will shut off the pump.

While a CSV maybe utilized with your existing 56-gallon pressure tank, because the CSV will prevent the pump from cycling, a large pressure tank is not needed, and actually, your pressure concerns will be best satisfied by replacing your large pressure tank with a small one such as the 10-gallon tank often included with the CSV PK1A Pside kick kit shown HERE.

A 4.5 gallon pressure tank is also offered, but the 4.5 is typically recommended for 40/60psi or lower pressure systems. For a 50/70 psi system, then a 10-gallon pressure tank is normally recommended.

Your exisiting 56-gallon pressure tank will store approx 14-gallons of draw down. If the tank is completely filled to 70 psi before the start of your shower, then ~14 gallons will need to be consumed before the pump becomes activated at 50 psi. A typical shower head flows @ 2.5 gpm, so that 14-gallons will probably represent over 5-minutes of shower time at declining pressure before the pump becomes activated and constant pressure is supplied.

A 10-gallon pressure tank will only store about 2.5 gallons drawdown, so a shower will usually only need to run for about 1-minute before the pump becomes activated and constant pressure may be enjoyed in the shower.

CSV Interactive Animation

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LLigetfa]

A CSV will not magically increase the GPM of the pump if draw exceeds what the pump can deliver or what is lost in friction.

 

[Morrelli]

Ya, trying to wrap my head around this. With better mousetraps there always seems to be some controversy or pushback/skepticism. I would rather not pull the PT for a10 gallon and find that I am dissatisfied for some reason, like not knowing that without the 14 gallon " reserve" that I may have a pump that can't meet load. I guess I could temporarily bypass the 56 and install a 10 gl PTand see how it goes. The theory makes sense but real world has some variables. Anyone out there in similar situations that has made the change in similar pump gpm that has some input? I'm not knocking the valve and see many support it, I am just concerned that my well pump may be slightly under rated for this task and so the thought of a temp install. As I am typing I'm wondering if there is there is a way to test my pumps curve before changing anything? Its just that occasionally I get some pretty low pressure which seems less than the 50 psi that the PT is set at for cut in. I have no idea what kind of pressure was available during the well flow test so just trying to make thw right decision. Thanks!

 

[Bannerman]

You said your pressure switch is calibrated to 50/70 and your pump supplied 13.5 gpm. It then seems your pump is more than capable. The reduction in flow rate was after pumping continuously at 13.5 GPM for an hour, so the water level in the well was likely drawn down substantially lower, thereby increasing the amount of vertical lift the pump was forced to overcome.

A flow rate of 7.5 GPM is more than sufficient for almost all single family residences. When the flow rate was 7.5 GPM, did closing faucets continue to allow pressure to build to the full 70 psi, thereby causing the pressure switch to shut off the pump?

A pressure tank is utilized to maintain pressure in the system while the pump is shut off. A PT is also utilized as a timing device, thereby controlling the minimum run time the pump will operate for. Pump's are designed to run continuously, 24/7. It is repeated cycling that reduces its lifespan, and the lifespan of the pressure tank, pressure switch, check valve and other components. A large PT will reduce cycling frequency, but does not provide a 'reserve' as your PT will contain the full drawdown amount at 70 psi, but will contain almost no water at 50 psi.

While the pressure tank will supply some water initially when any faucet is first opened, the drawdown capacity will become progressively consumed until pressure is reduced to the PS cut-in setting (50 psi) whereby the PS will activate the pump. As an example, short water flow use bursts such as while repeatedly turning a faucet ON/OFF to rinse dishes, will cause the drawdown to be reduced a small amount each time the faucet is opened. The remaining pressure could fall to only 51 psi, and will remain at that pressure until the next time water is consumed to cause pressure to fall to 50 psi.

The pump's delivery rate and size of the pressure tank, will determine how long the pump will need to run for to fill the PT. For instance, if your pump's delivery rate averages 13 GPM, then a PT with 13 gallons drawdown capacity, will result in the pump operating for about 60-seconds to refill the Ptank from 50 to 70. Sixty seconds run time is considered to be minimum, with 2-minutes generally preferred as a greater 26-gallon drawdown volume will reduce cycling frequency, and as each startup creates additional heat in the pump's motor, longer run time will assist to cool the motor.

All water to faucets is supplied by the pump, not the pressure tank.

Because a CSV will prevent cycling while water is being consumed, and will reduce 50% of the pressure tank's fill rate to only 1 GPM after water is no longer being consumed, a large PT will be no longer needed nor beneficial.

Suggest utilizing the CSV Interactive Animation Demo to better understand how a CSV functions.

 

[Reach4]

I think you are using a 50/70 psi pressure switch, so your air precharge should be 48 psi.

As I am typing I'm wondering if there is there is a way to test my pumps curve before changing anything? Its just that occasionally I get some pretty low pressure which seems less than the 50 psi that the PT is set at for cut in. I have no idea what kind of pressure was available during the well flow test so just trying to make thw right decision.

I think this could go a long way to characterizing your system:
Run water slowly until the pressure switch turns on; then stop using water.
1. At what pressure does the pressure switch turn on?
2. At 1 second after cut-on what is the water pressure?
3. How many seconds from cut-on does the pressure hit 60 psi?
4. How many seconds from cut-on does the pressure switch cut off?
5. ~10 seconds later, what is the pressure?

You could take a movie of the pressure gauge if that makes gathering data easier.

Is there something you dislike about your current water pressure situation?

 

[Morrelli]

I will check the timing and get back. Yes, the pre charge pressure is set correctly. What i dont like about my setup is a drop in pressure when taking a shower and someone else takes one at the same time, or runs the dishwasher, or waters the flowers outside or etc. Its strictly a personal preference, otherwise its adequate for everything else.

 

[Valveman]

What i dont like about my setup is a drop in pressure when taking a shower and someone else takes one at the same time, or runs the dishwasher, or waters the flowers outside or etc. Its strictly a personal preference, otherwise its adequate for everything else.

All good advice above. And yes, the CSV is your answer. When drawing water from the tank, the pressure at the shower will be down to like 30 PSI when the tank is at 50 PSI and the pump is started. Once the pump starts, the 14 gallons needed by tank must be refilled before and as the pressure increases. The pump sees the 14 gallons as an extra demand to supply, and you already had two showers and other things running, so the pressure stays low for a long time.

Technically, using a Cycle Stop Valve WITH a large tank will give pumps the least number of cycles possible. However, as was said, you still have to wait 5 minutes as the shower pressure decreases, until the 14 gallons from the tank is used up before the pump starts and pressure increases. With a small tank, the 2 gallons in a 10 gallon size tank is used up before you get the temp adjusted. So, the entire shower, even if you shower for a month, will be at a strong and constant 60 PSI. As others in the house use water, the CSV will instantly increase flow to maintain the 60 PSI constant, and your shower pressure will not dip at all.

Hundreds of examples from people like you on our reviews here. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

 

[Morrelli]

I think you are using a 50/70 psi pressure switch, so your air precharge should be 48 psi.

I think this could go a long way to characterizing your system:
Run water slowly until the pressure switch turns on; then stop using water.
1. At what pressure does the pressure switch turn on?
2. At 1 second after cut-on what is the water pressure?
3. How many seconds from cut-on does the pressure hit 60 psi?
4. How many seconds from cut-on does the pressure switch cut off?
5. ~10 seconds later, what is the pressure?

You could take a movie of the pressure gauge if that makes gathering data easier.

Is there something you dislike about your current water pressure situation?

Sorry for the delay. A couple things- I confused my other pressure tank with this one. This one is actually an 86 gallon with a drawdown of 21.5 gl with 40/60 switch. Also, hard to catch the 1 second psi after cut in while turning water off at same time, but at cut in i saw 42 psi and a couple seconds later I saw 43 or so. It took exactly 3 minutes to cut out at 62 psi and remained solid at 62 psi for well over the 5 minutes I cared to watch. So that's what, 21.5/3= 7.16 gpm. I intentionally checked late in the day when static is lower. So if I go this route I thought i would also get the cycle sensor to protect the pump, but just feeling like I need some reassurance that its a good move.

I think you are using a 50/70 psi pressure switch, so your air precharge should be 48 psi.

I think this could go a long way to characterizing your system:
Run water slowly until the pressure switch turns on; then stop using water.
1. At what pressure does the pressure switch turn on?
2. At 1 second after cut-on what is the water pressure?
3. How many seconds from cut-on does the pressure hit 60 psi?
4. How many seconds from cut-on does the pressure switch cut off?
5. ~10 seconds later, what is the pressure?

You could take a movie of the pressure gauge if that makes gathering data easier.

Is there something you dislike about your current water pressure situation?

 

[Valveman]

A Cycle Sensor will certainly protect your pump if you let the well run dry.

Cycle Sensor Pump Monitor – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

Buy It! Interactive Animation General Information Specifications Wiring Diagram Installation Instructions Installation Video Troubleshooting

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[Valveman]

Hi All-
So, domestic well, 1hp submersible, 509 feet deep. Recent 4 hour test, produced 13.5 gpm then dropped to 7.5 for the remaining three hours. Pressure tank (56 gl) at 50/70. Three people in house. I like good pressure showers and so do the other two and often at the same time so there is a significant drop in pressure In this scenario. I have irrigation but it is on a separate pump from a canal thanks to help from this forum. Would a CSV be the answer? Any particular model? Thanks in advance and enjoy the turkey!

A 7.5 GPM pump will run two 3 GPM showers at the same time, but not three. The 21 gallons stored in the 80 gallon tank will be used up before the pump is started. So, once the pump starts, it has to supply the shower(s) directly while also trying to refill the 21 gallons in the tank. The pressure will not increase until the tank is refilled, and if the shower(s) are using all or most of the water the pump can supply, the tank cannot be refilled until the showers are turned off. Refilling the tank is like having an additional shower running, and you already don't have enough pressure for the showers.

If you want good strong constant pressure in three 3 GPM showers at the same time, you will need a pump that can supply a minimum of 9 GPM. If your well or well pump is not strong enough to supply 9-10 GPM, then a storage tank and booster pump would be a good idea.

Pressure is always stronger when water is coming directly from the pump. When water is coming from the tank you are "drawing" water with the shower. There may be 50-60 PSI at the tank, but the pressure at the shower must be lower for the water to flow or be "drawn" from the tank. Like water dropping from a waterfall, the pressure at the shower will be much lower than the tank pressure. Water falling out of the shower head is like pulling slack out of a chain. As the water falls out, there is more water "drawn" into the shower head.

When water is coming directly from the pump to the shower it is much more like a steel rod. Water is being pushed from the pump at a constant pressure all the way to the shower head instead of being "drawn" from the tank. Having a big tank makes the system "squishy" as water backing up at the shower head has another place to go.

A big pressure tank does not supply additional water to help the pump. The pump must be large enough to supply the demand if you want good strong constant pressure.

 

[Reach4]

Also, hard to catch the 1 second psi after cut in while turning water off at same time, but at cut in i saw 42 psi and a couple seconds later I saw 43 or so. It took exactly 3 minutes to cut out at 62 psi and remained solid at 62 psi for well over the 5 minutes I cared to watch. So that's what, 21.5/3= 7.16 gpm.

I was trying to be able to detect if the pump pumped at an almost constant rate, or it started much faster, but was pumping at a much lower rate toward the end.

Part of what you would want to know is if the pressure at the CSV would exceed the maximum as the flow decreased to 1 gpm. You could test for that directly by measuring the deadhead pressure -- pump into a pressure gauge with no pressure tank.

So, domestic well, 1hp submersible, 509 feet deep. Recent 4 hour test, produced 13.5 gpm then dropped to 7.5 for the remaining three hours.

Was that test done with your current pump, or a test pump?

 

[Morrelli]

Was done with my current pump. Just to clarify, my PT is 86 gl with 40/60 switch and 21.5 drawdown.

 

[Reach4]

Was done with my current pump. Just to clarify, my PT is 86 gl with 40/60 switch and 21.5 drawdown.

I picked up on that. During your 40 hour test, I presume that the pressure at the pressure gauge was well under 40 psi in the last hour, and that the pump was not cycling.

If you get a CSV, it will probably be the CSV1. It is adjustable.

 

[Morrelli]

A 7.5 GPM pump will run two 3 GPM showers at the same time, but not three. The 21 gallons stored in the 80 gallon tank will be used up before the pump is started. So, once the pump starts, it has to supply the shower(s) directly while also trying to refill the 21 gallons in the tank. The pressure will not increase until the tank is refilled, and if the shower(s) are using all or most of the water the pump can supply, the tank cannot be refilled until the showers are turned off. Refilling the tank is like having an additional shower running, and you already don't have enough pressure for the showers.

If you want good strong constant pressure in three 3 GPM showers at the same time, you will need a pump that can supply a minimum of 9 GPM. If your well or well pump is not strong enough to supply 9-10 GPM, then a storage tank and booster pump would be a good idea.

Pressure is always stronger when water is coming directly from the pump. When water is coming from the tank you are "drawing" water with the shower. There may be 50-60 PSI at the tank, but the pressure at the shower must be lower for the water to flow or be "drawn" from the tank. Like water dropping from a waterfall, the pressure at the shower will be much lower than the tank pressure. Water falling out of the shower head is like pulling slack out of a chain. As the water falls out, there is more water "drawn" into the shower head.

When water is coming directly from the pump to the shower it is much more like a steel rod. Water is being pushed from the pump at a constant pressure all the way to the shower head instead of being "drawn" from the tank. Having a big tank makes the system "squishy" as water backing up at the shower head has another place to go.

A big pressure tank does not supply additional water to help the pump. The pump must be large enough to supply the demand if you want good strong constant pressure.

View attachment 106634View attachment 106635

Unfortunately I have no room for a storage tank. I think i.might create a " test site" install a csv and a small PT (10gl?). And bypass my 86 gl PT. I.monitor power so I can compare years of pump data with a month or two of power usage with a csv. I dont think.the well.will ever run dry. Its producing as it has since 1999. This will help.me decide if I want to permanently use this setup or not. Any thoughts on that? (Time to sh#t or get off the pot kinda thing) having a little afterthought too, any value in having a csv and then86 gl PT in parallel and tightening up the cut in value? My thinking that this might minimize my drawdown?

 

[Morrelli]

Unfortunately I have no room for a storage tank. I think i.might create a " test site" install a csv and a small PT (10gl?). And bypass my 86 gl PT. I.monitor power so I can compare years of pump data with a month or two of power usage with a csv. I dont think.the well.will ever run dry. Its producing as it has since 1999. This will help.me decide if I want to permanently use this setup or not. Any thoughts on that? (Time to sh#t or get off the pot kinda thing) having a little afterthought too, any value in having a csv and then86 gl PT in parallel and tightening up the cut in value? My thinking that this might minimize my drawdown?

.....ya, that would.probably be really hard and the bladder with the increased pre charge...

 

[Reach4]

any value in having a csv and then86 gl PT in parallel and tightening up the cut in value? My thinking that this might minimize my drawdown?

In parallel? I don't picture what you are saying.

Tightening up the range? With a usual pressure switch you can loosen the nut on the small spring all of the way, and maybe you will maybe get an 18 psi differential. To get a 10 psi differential, you would need an electronic pressure switch, and that might be less reliable. For sure it would be more expensive. But if you could achieve a 5 or 10 psi differential, that would be nice.

 

[RetiredInGueydan]

Hi All-
So, domestic well, 1hp submersible, 509 feet deep. Recent 4 hour test, produced 13.5 gpm then dropped to 7.5 for the remaining three hours. Pressure tank (56 gl) at 50/70. Three people in house. I like good pressure showers and so do the other two and often at the same time so there is a significant drop in pressure In this scenario. I have irrigation but it is on a separate pump from a canal thanks to help from this forum. Would a CSV be the answer? Any particular model? Thanks in advance and enjoy the turkey!

If your well makes the minimum 1800 gallons in 4 hours as you state, then you need a pump that better meets your demand.

 

[Reach4]

If your well makes the minimum 1800 gallons in 4 hours as you state, then you need pump that better meets your demand.

What causes you to think the existing pump does not meet the demand?

 

[RetiredInGueydan]

What causes you to think the existing pump does not meet the demand?

With a pumping rate of only 7.16 gpm on a 42/62 pressure switch setting as being a likely scenario, this will not support the demand needed by the owner. The current pump falls short of providing the gpm needed for a CSV setting of 60 psi on a 50/70 pressure switch setting.