Crossed lines? bad check valve? Huge problems!!!

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Confused in Ohio

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We bought a house out of foreclosure. It has a 400 gallon spa tub that we could never get filled to a proper temperature and we were told it was because the hot water heater was too small. We had a new heater installed that was supposed to be able to fill the tub. From Day One in the house we have had a problem with the cold water running hot on all the facuets on this side of the house. The water starts cold and them runs hot a minute of so and then goes back to cold. It does this on all the sinks. With the instalation of the new hot water heater, we had a check valve installed on the expansion tank, this did nothing to fix the issue. We shut off the hot water supply, turned on the hot water and it continues to run to each fixture. The plumber told us it has to be a failed temperature modulation value (except we cannot find one), or a crossed line. He has used in-wall cameras to look for the valve to no avail. We now have 6 holes in the basement ceiling and had several check valves replaced on the other lines. Apparently he found some check valves while cutting holes in the ceiling. The plumber has left for the day and now there is a sound like someone sawing a hole that goes off every 15 minutes. We are at our wits end here. Here is what is served by the hot water on this side of the house. Powder room toilet and sink (1st floor), bar sink (basement), Full bath shower, sink toilet (basement), master bath (first floor) Kohler spa tub, shower with Kohler hand held shower wand with seperate volume and temperature control, 2 Kohler steam units, 2 sets of three Kohler body sprays each with a seperate volume and temperature control and 2 sinks. The bsaement ceiling looks like swiss cheese.

Here are my quesitons

1. Does this sound like crossed lines?
2. If yes how do you isolate a fixture to see if it is the supply to that fixture that is causing the problem?
3. What could be causing the sawing noise that only started today?
4. What can we do besides continuing to cut holes in the ceiling????


HELP
 

Jadnashua

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Some single handle valves' cartridges can cross-over. I'd turn off everything that has a shutoff, and see if the problem goes away. Unless you have a recirulation system, you do not need ANY check valves, and you may be hearing one or more of them chattering. If it does go away, then start opening the valves one at a time to try to isolate the problem. A failed tempering valve could cause the problem. If you have one, it's likely right at the WH. It's possible they could have used a point of use one. Does the spa have a thermostatically controlled valve?

Do you really mean 400-gallons? Considering you can normally only get about 70-80% of the tank before the hot runs out, that would mean nearly a 500-gallon WH? that's HUGE, and there's no residential unit that can do that unless you string multiple heaters together, or have a bunch of really big tankless units so you had a decent flow to fill the thing before what you put in there cooled off.
 

Confused in Ohio

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367 gallons based on my calculation

First of all thank you for the reply. I really appreciate this. I am on plumber #2 and he is ready to quit becuse he cannot figure it out and as he put it "I cannot sleep at night trying to figure this out." He also thinks its a tempering valve, but we have been looking for it at "point of use" by drilling holes and using a sewer camera, as there was not one at the HW heater. There are no shut off valves I can find other than the sinks. This morning we are replacing the temperature cartridges in the temperature controls in the three in the master shower to see if that works. I will ask him if the HW is recirculating. WE now have three check valves.

As for the hot water heater, it is some fancy AO Smith that turbo heats the water or some such nonsense. Apparently is for use in hotels. It is supposed ot be like having a 50 gallon tankless heater.

I have no idea why someone would put such a monstrous hot tub in a house and not be certain you could get it filled with hot water.

Again, I really appreciate your help. The house is ten years old and I have called the builder, and essentially said not his problem.
 

hj

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The ONLY reason for having "check valves" in the ceiling would be because you have a hot water circulation system, (and if it has that many check valves it was installed improperly). If so, there are too many possible causes for your problem to diagnose it from here. But, I am not sure the plumber you have is diagnosing it correctly either, since it appears that he is cutting and changing things without discovering WHAT is causing the real problem.
 

Nukeman

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What are the dimensions on this thing? Is it a real hot tub (like you'd put outside and has room for like 6 people) or is it just a jetted tub? Most large jetted tubs are more like 100 gal or so.

While it would be possible to put an outdoor type spa tube inside, many recirculate the water and heat it. The other issue is whether they actually build the house to support that weight. If your calcs are correct, that is 3,000+ lbs sitting in that area. They would have to consider that load when framing the house.

You mention a Kohler tub, so it seems like an indoor jetted tub. Do you have a model number?

If this thing really is close to 400 gal, how often are you going to really use it? That is a LOT of water to heat and use. In addition, it would take forever to fill that thing unless they ran larger than normal piping from the meter and through the house as well as a larger valve on the tub. I mean, if you could pull say 10 gpm, it would take close to 40 minutes to fill that thing up. Most tankless heaters can't hit anywhere near 10 gpm, so you'd need multiple tankless units. Otherwise, you'd have to cut the flow to a couple gpm to get hot water and then you might be filling for an hour or 2.

You other option would be multiple, large, commerical type tank WH (gas fired). I don't see a high recovery 50 gal unit doing the job unless you filled the tub slowly enough so the burner could keep up.

In order to know if the tank is too small, we need:

- make sure of the true tub volume. The 367 gal doesn't seem right. Get model number or post dimensions.
- measure your flow rate. Get a 5 gal bucket and fill it with the tub spout. Time how long it takes to fill and report back.
- check for the model number or burner BTUs on the current WH. This will let us know if the WH can provide hot water at the rate your tub is using it
 

LLigetfa

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Like nukeman said, most large hot tubs recirculate and heat the water and as such they are not usually filled and then drained for each use.

As hj said, shooting in the dark by adding checkvalves without knowing the real source of the problem is not the route to take.
 

Confused in Ohio

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Okay, many thanks. Kohler K-1399-H2 My math was way off. It is a Kohler riverbath it holds 215 gallons. It is a jetted tub with 2 pumps and heaters. I will get the new WH specs and post those later today. I think I found the corssover issue. The shower has three temperature and volume controls. The face plates of two of the three units are hot to the touch when there is no water running. I took out one of the temperature control cartridges (I am confident this not the right term) went to a plumbing supply store and learned they are a mere $200 each. The people at the plumbing supply place said that is why you do not buy Kohler. They also said these things fail after so many years and these are 10 years old. Does it sound to anyone like this might be the cause of the crossover issue? On the issue of check valves, the plumber told me there were check values in the line because there is a hand held shower wand in the tub and they were probably put in to prevent backflow? I have no idea.

Thank you to everyone who has been so helpful. I am looking at 5 holes in the celiing and thinking at least 4 were not necessary.
 

LLigetfa

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Given their faceplates are hot when not in use, it is highly probable that is the source of the crossover unless there is a recirc system to provide instant warm. If there are in-line shutoffs, that would be a cheap way to determine for sure.
 

Jadnashua

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A hand-held shower requires a vacuum breaker, not a check valve. Similar, but not the same. These are often an adapter, in-line with the hose.
 

hj

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The shower valve unit, since it does NOT have an ON/OFF function SHOULD have integral check valves, usually check/stops, and THESE would be the cause of crossover, NOT the cartridge.
 
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