copper flange & 90 replacement problem

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Sassnak

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So in the process of narrowing down a different leak, I figured out that one of my toilet flanges had a slight leak as well. I have copper drain pipes and the 90 under the toilet went straight into the flange. I have cut off the 3" copper on the horizontal area intending to replace the elbow and flange with ABS, but I've run into a problem.

5AEC02E5-2472-4D27-BFFF-A0D1C6F55A72_1_102_o.jpeg


That is a 3" 90 with a hub on one end and a spigot on the other, with a 3/4 closet flange fitted on the outside of the spigot end. The flange is sitting on a finished tile floor and you can see the bottom of it coming below the floor in the pic. The whole thing is about 1.5" too tall.

Am I correct in thinking that the fitting pictured below should work? Or if not, what options do I have? Lowering the horizontal copper section would be a last resort as it will be very difficult to access where it meets the vertical stack. I'm a little concerned it will still be a bit too tall, if it is 1/2" or less is it okay to trim the spigot end and the closet flange by that much to make it shorter?

MUELERE00049_127_PP_001.jpg


I will see if I can find this type of 90 locally but I've totally struck out with the other fittings and couplings I've needed so who knows if they will actually have it. The local supply stores I can check inventory for online only carry this type of 90 in 1.5" and 2" pipe, not the 3" that I need. I did check PVC too but that doesn't seem to be any easier to find. So before I likely have to make (yet another) mail order, I want to make sure I'm on the right track.
 
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Jeff H Young

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street vent 90 ? improper application. Dont know why the copper is so high or an easy fix . other than use that fitting . you can cope a little off the closet rig where it hits on the inside curve (throat)of the 90 to get the ring to go down on flooor
 

Sassnak

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street vent 90 ? improper application. Dont know why the copper is so high or an easy fix . other than use that fitting . you can cope a little off the closet rig where it hits on the inside curve (throat)of the 90 to get the ring to go down on flooor
If I bring the 90 up high enough to connect to the existing copper, the ring is about 1.5" above the finished floor so it is more than a little bit. I don't know why they put the copper so high either, there is plenty of vertical space they could've used and didn't.
 

Sassnak

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Replace it with copper.
Is that my only option? I don't have the skills to do that which is why I wanted to go with plastic. I am having some guests arrive at the end of the week (it was a last-minute decision that I am accommodating for a family emergency reason) that will be here for a couple of weeks and was really hoping to get this bathroom functional again as it is the main bathroom.

It has been out of commission for like 9 months because I kept thinking I'd be able to save up money for a professional fix but it's been one emergency after another just nonstop. I assume this will be a very expensive fix if I have to call in a professional to replace it with copper but I'm not sure how much to expect. I've tried getting quotes for it but can't get anybody to respond. I talked to Terry about it briefly last year but didn't get a quote from him because he'd closed the business for a bit. I got several quotes before on replacing a water valve which I understand is easier soldering and the cheapest bid I got for that was like $800 though so I'm guessing this would be even more.
 

John Gayewski

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With the dimensions you have there I think copper might be the only thing that fits. The horizontal looks very close to the sub floor.
 

Fitter30

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WorthFlorida

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For the cost to get a copper elbow and labor, is it possible to run an ABS pipe to the stack somewhere below the copper pipe? Just keep the copper capped off and at the stack cut into the copper using a tee and Furnco couplings?

Another is installing a macerator or ejector pump with tank that can sit on the floor of the basement or crawl space, but venting could be a problem. Google "lift station".
 

Jeff H Young

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With the dimensions you have there I think copper might be the only thing that fits. The horizontal looks very close to the sub floor.
Might be the only right way to do it if a copper rough allows the arm at this location . Im not clear if it was moved or not but a plastic vent 90 isnt right
 

Jeff H Young

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Duh? that might work too dont know what Im thinking ? but thats about as high as they get. I used to use those about 5 times more than a hub x hub but think we started saving money by using other fittings .
 

Sassnak

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Thanks for making me consider this again! I got one of those first but had issues with the flange fitting into it and so switched to the 3x3. And since I'm new to this I did not consider that when using a 3x3 hub x spigot that the flange will sit higher on the outside than it sits on the inside of a 3x4. So even though it is a taller fitting, the fitting + flange is shorter.

So that being said, even with the flange pushed in flush to the top of the spigot end it is still going to be too tall. Can I cut down the fitting and flange a bit so they only overlap about 1-1.25" or is that going to be too little?

And the second problem I have is that the flange only fits into it less than an inch before it is too tight. How do I get the flange to fit? Not sure if I'm missing something obvious. Sand it down a bit? Or do I have a defective spigot end?

F56C7C6D-01F1-419F-A7B1-7B08892E045E_1_102_a.jpeg
 

Master Plumber Mark

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Thanks for making me consider this again! I got one of those first but had issues with the flange fitting into it and so switched to the 3x3. And since I'm new to this I did not consider that when using a 3x3 hub x spigot that the flange will sit higher on the outside than it sits on the inside of a 3x4. So even though it is a taller fitting, the fitting + flange is shorter.

So that being said, even with the flange pushed in flush to the top of the spigot end it is still going to be too tall. Can I cut down the fitting and flange a bit so they only overlap about 1-1.25" or is that going to be too little?

And the second problem I have is that the flange only fits into it less than an inch before it is too tight. How do I get the flange to fit? Not sure if I'm missing something obvious. Sand it down a bit? Or do I have a defective spigot end?

View attachment 91178


You might get away with this if you cut off the riser on the top half of the elbow down as much as possible and then cut off the new toilet flange that will go down into the elbow as much as you can too....

Also, you will probably have to grind down the male part of that flange that goes into the elbow to make it go into the socket further..... If you grind, or sand it down enough to make it a loose fitting in the socket you will win, if you measured correctly

because once you glue it together it will never leak ---- also use a liberal amount of Heavy Duty thick glue...

I assume that of course you will be attaching to the copper with a 3 inch no-hub fitting....


good luck and may god have mercy on your soul
 

wwhitney

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So that being said, even with the flange pushed in flush to the top of the spigot end it is still going to be too tall. Can I cut down the fitting and flange a bit so they only overlap about 1-1.25" or is that going to be too little?
The parts in your picture both come with the hub (on the reducing closet bend) and spigot (on the flange) longer than typical, to help you with the case that the horizontal WC drain needs to be lower. You can cut them down for your use case.

A typical 4" solvent weld joint uses a hub depth of 1-3/4", so 1-3/4" of overlap would be best if that will fit. 1-1/2" will be fine. 1-1/4", maybe fine? 1" not sure? Those are beyond my experience.

As to your not being able to seat the joint fully dry, that is expected and true of all solvent weld joints. They are supposed to be an interference fit when fully bottomed, and so can be bottomed only once the solvent cement softens the parts. That makes exact dry fitting impossible. The effect is just exaggerated in your picture as the hub/spigot depth is so much longer than usual.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Sassnak

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Thanks everyone for your help! I did have to cut it down to 1", so we'll see if it holds up. I completely forgot when originally starting this thread that the original flange was sitting almost 3/4" proud of the finished floor, so I have a feeling that if this doesn't hold up (really hoping it does lol) that there won't be enough vertical space even to redo it properly in copper and we'll have to take it back to the stack - which would be a massive pain. So I think this solution is worth a try. I don't know why they put the original copper so high! I've got 3/4" plywood with Ditra and tile and it was still that high above the finished floor.

That being said, it seemed like a solid weld to me and it looks good overall (at least to my inexperienced eye) so hopefully it will last.

IMG_4564.jpeg
 
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