Considering Fleck 9100 SXT water softener

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wuffers

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Hi guys,

My wife has been bugging me to get a water softener installed, and I'm the sort who likes to go research things before making a purchase (whereas my wife likes to impulse buy lol).

We have a 4600 sqft home with 6 bathrooms, currently with just us 2 living there. We plan to start a family, so I am considering purchasing a slightly larger capacity, and we sometimes host guests as well.

Our water consumption is approx. 130-150 gallons per day, and I've tested our water with a Hach 5B kit, coming to a 8 gpg result (seems our city report of 7.5 gpg is pretty accurate). Every calculator I look at says a 1cf (32k) unit should suffice.

After looking at many reviews, Fleck seems to be one of the better brands out there. I like the idea of the dual tank 9100 SXT.

Some q's:
  • Is purchasing a 1.5cf unit overkill (1.5cf x2 tanks), for the purposes of "future-proofing"? Based on a calculator I saw, for our current load @ 6lbs salt setting, it will be ~21 days for each regeneration for a normal single 48k tank.
  • Should I be looking at this unit as a "total combined" capacity? Two tanks of 1.5cf is actually 3cf, which is way too much, so I should be looking at either the 0.75 or 1cf dual tanks, meaning a total of 1.5 or 2cf?
  • For the Fleck 9100 SXT, with two tanks, does that mean regeneration for each tank will take place every 42 days (one is in use for 21 days, dormant for the next 21 since it's switched to the other)? Or do both tanks have their own 21 day regeneration cycle?
  • Is it bad for the resin to have such a long regeneration time (21 days, let alone 42)? I often see people mention that the ideal recommended regeneration cycle is 7 days.
  • What kind of "servicing" does a water softener unit need, and how often should this be done (annually)?
  • Does it matter whether a plumber or a water treatment company install the unit (and service it later on)?
  • I've read elsewhere that I should insist on a 3 valve bypass at the unit, as well as bypassing exterior faucets (watering plants, car washing, etc). This is a fairly standard thing for plumbers but maybe not for a water treatment company?
  • Do I also need to bypass drinking water? I have a fridge with those changeable filters, as well as a filtration system at the sink with a hot water dispenser (filtered water to the hot tank).
I apologize in advance for being long-winded..
 

Reach4

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Is purchasing a 1.5cf unit overkill (1.5cf x2 tanks), for the purposes of "future-proofing"? Based on a calculator I saw, for our current load @ 6lbs salt setting, it will be ~21 days for each regeneration for a normal single 48k tank.
I would go with a single 1.5 cuft softener. Usually the dual unit is for higher-use users, or who run 24-hour households that don't want the softener in bypass for an hour or two during regen. Having 7.5 grain hardness from 2 AM to 3:30AM every 2 weeks is not a big deal at all.
Should I be looking at this unit as a "total combined" capacity? Two tanks of 1.5cf is actually 3cf, which is way too much, so I should be looking at either the 0.75 or 1cf dual tanks, meaning a total of 1.5 or 2cf?
There is a factor called service flow rate (SFR). The service flow rate for 1 cuft is 9 GPM, and is less for 0.75 cuft.
For the Fleck 9100 SXT, with two tanks, does that mean regeneration for each tank will take place every 42 days (one is in use for 21 days, dormant for the next 21 since it's switched to the other)? Or do both tanks have their own 21 day regeneration cycle?
The tanks switch which tank is in service when one is exhausted. Then there are two choices. The used-up tank can regenerate immediately, or you can have it wait until the programmable time (defaults to 2 AM) rolls around.
Is it bad for the resin to have such a long regeneration time (21 days, let alone 42)? I often see people mention that the ideal recommended regeneration cycle is 7 days.
The 7 day or less is for when the softener is dealing with iron. City water already has the iron removed.
What kind of "servicing" does a water softener unit need, and how often should this be done (annually)?
Salt as needed. Preventive maintenance? Not usually... maybe clean the brine tank every 5 to 10 thousand pounds of salt.
I've read elsewhere that I should insist on a 3 valve bypass at the unit, as well as bypassing exterior faucets (watering plants, car washing, etc). This is a fairly standard thing for plumbers but maybe not for a water treatment company?
Usually the bypass is provided with the softener. You have the option of an external 3-valve bypass instead. I presume almost everybody who pipes in new softeners knows to not run that to the outside spigots. You might want a soft water spigot outside, but not for watering plants. A water treatment specialist will prescribe the equipment, procure it for you, and install. The plumber may provide the equipment, or could install equipment that you bought separately.
Do I also need to bypass drinking water? I have a fridge with those changeable filters, as well as a filtration system at the sink with a hot water dispenser (filtered water to the hot tank).
It is up to you. I like soft water for making coffee in my automatic machine, and I don't get deposits. I usually drink soft water, but I sometimes fill a water bottle with the filtered well water from before the softener.
 

ditttohead

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The 9100 is an excellent softener but it is not needed in your application and the cost/complexity simply are not worth it. I would however size the softener a little closer to the house size rather than the people/current water usage. Going too big is silly but going a little larger would have many benefits including higher service flows and lower pressure drops across the system especially when multiple bathrooms are used simultaneously as the family grows. The cost of putting in a larger system now would be much cheaper than doing it later. The 9100 is also a fairly small flow rate valve compared to more modern higher flow valves that are more common.
 

wuffers

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First of all, thanks for taking the time for a prompt reply and all the knowledge you're sharing. This industry seems to cause a lot of confusion (at least to me..).

I would go with a single 1.5 cuft softener. Usually the dual unit is for higher-use users, or who run 24-hour households that don't want the softener in bypass for an hour or two during regen. Having 7.5 grain hardness from 2 AM to 3:30AM every 2 weeks is not a big deal at all.

Would that be a Fleck 5600? It appears that the 7000 has been discontinued.

There is a factor called service flow rate (SFR). The service flow rate for 1 cuft is 9 GPM, and is less for 0.75 cuft.

Ah, I knew I forgot something! Where can I look this up? My Google-Fu isn't coming up with anything useful. The specs on the official Pentair Fleck site only shows the max flow rates. The calculator I used previously shows a 9x48 tank (1 cuft) has a SFR of 7.4 gpm, a 10x54 tank (1.5 cuft, which the calculator says is 1.39) has a SFR of 10.3 gpm. What are the SFRs for a 1.5 cuft and 2.0 cuft unit?

How is it that SFR increases with larger tank with the same valve and pipe size?

The tanks switch which tank is in service when one is exhausted. Then there are two choices. The used-up tank can regenerate immediately, or you can have it wait until the programmable time (defaults to 2 AM) rolls around.

The 7 day or less is for when the softener is dealing with iron. City water already has the iron removed.

Still curious though - without iron in the mix, why the need for the regeneration to occur frequently? Wouldn't longer regeneration cycles be better as there would be less wear and tear? What would be the difference between a 15 vs 30 vs 60 days between regeneration?

If taking the 9100 as the example, and getting dual 1.5 cuft tanks, it would be 42 days between regeneration based on my current usage. 21 days on, regen and sit there, 21 days on the other tank (and it regens), then back to first tank for 21 days before it regens again (42 days after the regen first occurred).

The 9100 is an excellent softener but it is not needed in your application and the cost/complexity simply are not worth it. I would however size the softener a little closer to the house size rather than the people/current water usage. Going too big is silly but going a little larger would have many benefits including higher service flows and lower pressure drops across the system especially when multiple bathrooms are used simultaneously as the family grows. The cost of putting in a larger system now would be much cheaper than doing it later. The 9100 is also a fairly small flow rate valve compared to more modern higher flow valves that are more common.

Hi dittohead! Looks like both of you are recommending a single tank unit. How "big" is enough for this house? Our water is not very hard, and 1.5 cuft is already the next step up. Would 2.0 cuft be too much?

Any other brands other than Fleck?
 

intel2020

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Based on all of the great recommendations here, I am going with the Fleck 5810 valve. Actually, two of them as I am putting in both a Carbon System (to remove chlorine from city water) in front of the Softener. I am replacing a Fleck 9100 dual tank system. Replacing because it is 10/11 years old, has started to leak at the valve and I should replace the tank resin. As I started to look at the cost to resolve both issues, I could basically get a new system (well, not including the carbon system -- I just want to get rid of the chlorine). I am going with 2 cu ft of media in both tanks. My hardness is ~21 grains. I too have a larger house, 1 in plumbing. The Carbon tank will have a Fleck 5810 STX valve and the Softener tank will have the 5810 XTR2 valve. I am reworking my softener loop to get it back to 1 in (from 3/4), adding ball type shut off valves on the softener loop feeds and terminating both with 1 in FIP threaded male connectors.

I am in the process of ordering everything online and have a local plumber helping with the plumbing tasks.
 

Reach4

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Would that be a Fleck 5600? It appears that the 7000 has been discontinued.
It turns out that the 5800, 5810 and 5812 are available, but not advertized. Click Inbox above.
Ah, I knew I forgot something! Where can I look this up? My Google-Fu isn't coming up with anything useful. The specs on the official Pentair Fleck site only shows the max flow rates. The calculator I used previously shows a 9x48 tank (1 cuft) has a SFR of 7.4 gpm, a 10x54 tank (1.5 cuft, which the calculator says is 1.39) has a SFR of 10.3 gpm. What are the SFRs for a 1.5 cuft and 2.0 cuft unit?

How is it that SFR increases with larger tank with the same valve and pipe size?
From the old Gary Slusser page:
The SFR in gpm is: 1.0 cuft = 9, 1.25 = 10, 1.5' = 12, 2.0' = 13, 2.5' = 18, 3.0' = 20, 3.5' = 22 gpm, 4.0 = 25. Note that the actual flow through the softener is usually less than people expect.​

The thing is the contact time that the water has the resin. More resin, more time for a given flow rate.
Still curious though - without iron in the mix, why the need for the regeneration to occur frequently? Wouldn't longer regeneration cycles be better as there would be less wear and tear? What would be the difference between a 15 vs 30 vs 60 days between regeneration?
I don't know.

If taking the 9100 as the example, and getting dual 1.5 cuft tanks, it would be 42 days between regeneration based on my current usage. 21 days on, regen and sit there, 21 days on the other tank (and it regens), then back to first tank for 21 days before it regens again (42 days after the regen first occurred).
The tank would spend 21 days unregenerated.
 

Bannerman

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How is it that SFR increases with larger tank with the same valve and pipe size?
Softening is an ion exchange process as calcium and magnesium ions will be exchanged with sodium ions. As ion exchange is not immediate, the water requires adequate contact time with the resin for the exchange to occur. Water will remain longer within a larger diameter tank compared to a smaller diameter tank at an equal flow rate and as a larger tank will contain a higher quantity of resin, there is additional contact surface for ion exchange to occur even when the flow rate is increased.

The ion exchange rate for a given quantity of resin is the important factor which governs softener SFR and sizing requirements. The control valve chosen, should be capable of delivering an even higher flow rate and also be able to support backwashing the size of tank needed . You should actually establish the SFR your home is capable of supporting when choosing the softener needed.

A 2 cuft softener (64K grains Total softening capacity) will support up to 13 gpm (US), but can be programmed for efficient salt use, using only 12 lbs salt to deliver 40K grains between regen cycles. A 2.5 cuft unit would support up to 15 gpm (IIRC). At the same salt efficiency setting, the 2.5 cuft would use 15 lbs to deliver 50K grains between cycles.

It is recommended to program for 2 or 3 additional grains hardness than tested, to compensate for variance within the distribution system. Your current 2 person household at 150 gpd X 10 gpg = 1500 grains per day softening load.

A 2 cuft unit programmed to deliver 40K / 1500 = 26.7 (26) days between regen cycles
A 2.5 cuft unit programmed for 50K / 1500 = 33.3 (33) days between regen cycles.
It is recommended to regenerate at least 1X per month when there is no iron, so a 2.5 cuft unit would likely regenerate using the Days Override setting, at least until there are additional occupants and more water is consumed.
 

ditttohead

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It is important to remember that flow rates for softening are not as critical as other treatment methods. You can blast water through a resin bed and it will still soften (maybe not as soft...) but doing this long term can affect the longevity of the resin. Some people try to state that you need to size a softener based on the service flow/maximum flow rate. This is incorrect in many applications. Consider a large house with a 1.5" main. The service flow rate would need to be about 40+ GPM. This would require a ridiculously large softener. Basing the softener on a reasonable flow rate and being able to accommodate the very infrequent, almost non existent peak flow of 40 GPM makes more sense. After decades of tracing water flow patterns in the vast majority of modern houses peak flow rates are rarely over 10 GPM. Even in larger mansions the flow rates rarely exceed 15 gpm. The flow rate requirements are written to prevent the water pressures from dropping to low during peak flow potential of the house. An improperly designed plumbing system can cause the flow to areas in the house to be non existent and even draw air into the plumbing as the water flow is drawn into other areas of the house. I see this regularly in Mexico where builders are not typically held to any modern codes and larger houses are plumbed with a 1/2" main line feeding 10 bathrooms. Turn on a couple showers and there is simply not enough water to push to the second floor. The plumbing code is written so that every fixture can be run simultaneously while still maintaining minimum pressure requirements.

Code also states that you can not reduce the plumbing for a softener.
 

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Thank you professors! This student is humbly absorbing all this useful information.

Based on everyone's input, I think I will try to source a 5800 series Fleck for my home, and get a quote for a 2.0 or 2.5 cuft tank. I might as well see what the cost difference is between a SXT and XRT2 display. I would be more than happy to regenerate once a month.

My calipers measured the pipe at around .880", so I assume this 3/4" internally. This is the meter by my furnace room in the basement, with a 3/4" label there as well. I don't have a pressure reading, so I'll go pick up a water pressure gauge on the way home tonight. City report says it's anywhere from 40-100psi.

File-2017-08-16,-2-31-04-PM.jpg


My next question is - would you install a bigger valve than the main? In my case my main is 3/4", which would mean a 5800, correct? Is there a reason to get a 5810 or 5812? Is there a huge cost difference?
 

ditttohead

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Bigger is better, no reason not too put in the 5810. Most meters are undersized by the city to save a few dollars. They write codes, it doesn't mean they actually follow them. The meter should flow in excess of 20-25 gpm, but the velocity is a bit high at that flow rate, they also lose considerable accuracy at higher flow rates but gain it at lower flow rates. The meter wont last very long at the higher flow rates but since most residential applications rarely flow at more than 5-6 gpm...
 

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Funnily enough, my first call into a local dealer and they were like, why do you need such a large grain system in your area? We can sell you a system that's more efficient and uses no electricity! I'm like.. is that a Kinetico? I don't want one. He seemed to be quite adamant that a 30 day regeneration cycle is damaging to the system (resin bed?). I would have liked to get some rough pricing over the phone but they're insisting on sending someone over.

Is there anything about the components I should insist on? 8% vs 10% crosslinked resin, etc.

Waiting on another company to call back in the mean time.
 

ditttohead

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30 days between regeneration will hurt the resin??? LOL. Ask him how do the protable regeneration guys go 30-60 days between regenerations for decades without damaging the resin. Some guys are just salesman to the core.

10% if you have chlorinated water. Most higher end dealers will automatically spec that but check and make sure. I would also ask them to fill the system on site to be sure that it is actually 10% resin rather than just saying it is.
 

intel2020

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I went here in the beginning of my search: http://waterpurification.pentair.com/en-US/homeowners/wheretobuy/
Basically the Pentair (owner of Fleck) dealer locator. There was only one dealer in my area. When I started calling other water treatment companies in my area, I just flat out started asking if they sell/configure Fleck 58xx valves. Amazingly, most did not for residential apps (use other valves made by Fleck for commercial), but they wanted to lead with Clack valves. I am sure others on this board will have nothing but good things to say about Clack, I just wanted the 5810XTR2 for usage info that I can get remotely. Probably most consumers could care less about usage stats.
 

wuffers

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Yeah, that dealer link doesn't work for Canada for some reason (well, it only shows the Pentair site as the only partner). I've submitted like 5 requests for quotes to local dealers/vendors, and only one came back with pricing so far.

I have no basis for comparison - and I'm not sure on the forum rules on stating what they quoted me for the unit. There is a $300 difference between the SXT and XRT2 models. They're charging about $300 for installation as well (with standard bypass, etc).

All I know so far is:
Fine mesh included. They need to confirm if it is 10% crosslink resin, and whether there is a gravel bed.
 

Reach4

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I would not get a 5810 to connect to my 3/4 copper again for a softener. I would opt for the 5800 or 5600sxt. The 5810 does the job, but more space is required.

The adapters can add to the length.
 

ditttohead

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I would definitely recommend the 5810, a lot of internal reasons... the 5810 is a much newer design. The 5800 is great but is based on the 5000 ProFlo. That is not a bad thing, but the 5810's technology is definitely advanced over the 5800. Check out these 3/4" fittings for the 5810. A 90 degree kit can be used to really tighten up the plumbing if needed. There would be no negative to the 5810, and if you moved to a larger house and wanted to take the unit with you...

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/54-55
 

wuffers

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I would not get a 5810 to connect to my 3/4 copper again for a softener. I would opt for the 5800 or 5600sxt. The 5810 does the job, but more space is required.

The adapters can add to the length.

Space won't be much of an issue, especially if down the line I'm swapping out the water tank for a tankless.

I would definitely recommend the 5810, a lot of internal reasons... the 5810 is a much newer design. The 5800 is great but is based on the 5000 ProFlo. That is not a bad thing, but the 5810's technology is definitely advanced over the 5800. Check out these 3/4" fittings for the 5810. A 90 degree kit can be used to really tighten up the plumbing if needed. There would be no negative to the 5810, and if you moved to a larger house and wanted to take the unit with you...

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/54-55

I suspect the installer will know what fittings to put in, but thanks for confirming the 5810 is a newer technology.
 

Reach4

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but the 5810's technology is definitely advanced over the 5800.
I am glad to hear that.

A 90 degree kit can be used to really tighten up the plumbing if needed.
I actually did that. My bypass is above the 61992 angle assembly. I should have asked for the angle adapters. The PEX was not as complient as I was thinking, so having at least one angle would have made the run up to the copper better. Of course Falcon lines would have made it much simpler.
 

ditttohead

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be sure to order the adapter that makes it the simplest for the plumber. I did a training seminar in the field last week on installations... the customer forgot to bring the falcon stainless, it added about an hour to the installation. Not a big deal, but the flex lines also add some protection to the equipment by allowing the tank to move a little as pressures fluctuate.
 
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