Concrete under toilet?

[Timoteo]

Hello.

Has anyone seen this before. I am not sure how to proceed.

The house was built in 1910 and the bathroom is off the back porch. Very old. The wood floor has a rubber mat laid over it and nailed in place. The 4 bolt toilet sits on a thin layer of concrete. (photos attached}

Now, the rubber has bulged up at the edge of the toilet and the concrete has come loose under the the front.

I looked under the house and can see some water dripping down the drain pipe when the toilet is flushed.

Additionally, the floor is not level and the toilet leans slightly towards to wall.

Any ideas on how to even begin this?

 

[Reach4]

That may be mortar being used like caulking. In which case, that should not present an obstacle.

I presume this wooden floor is over a crawl space.

Additionally, the floor is not level and the toilet leans slightly towards to wall.

Any ideas on how to even begin this?

What is your objective? I would expect you want to fix the floor where weak/rotting. You want to put down new flooring, such as ceramic, porcelain, laminate, or something. You want to put in a new toilet that flushes better.

You may want to replace the closet flange, or you may just be able to reuse the same flange, but make a better seal this time. If you keep the same flange, you will want to measure the rough-in to help with your plans.

So first, I think is to establish your objectives and budget.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Timoteo]

Yes, this is wooden floor over a crawl space.

The bathroom is very old and and we have no intention of remodeling it. Don't want to throw money at this room when it is a little bigger than a broom closet. Clearly added as an afterthought... we think in the 1930s. At some point, some other owner will come in and remodel the kitchen/bathroom area and increase the size of the bathroom. But that is not us. We just want our working toilet back.

Unless this is as simple as replacing a wax ring.... this job will be bigger than me. I am just not sure where to begin. Should I remove the old toilet? Should I remove the rubber flooring? Could it be as simple as replacing a wax ring? Can I reuse the old toilet? Does it need to be reset on mortar, since that it was it is on now? What was the point of setting the old toilet on mortar?

Please advise what you would do.... how would you begin.

 

[Reach4]

I am not a pro.

I would start by measuring the distance from the center of the aft closet bolts to the wall. That will give you info about what toilets you could consider.

Unless this toilet pretty much never needs a plunger, I would look to replace the toilet. Newer designs mostly flush better, despite using less water.

Rather than concrete or mortar, it is more common to use shims to prevent rocking. With wax it is important to have no rocking. You place the shims to prevent rocking. Do you want to shim to level the toilet too? That is not common, but I did it. Mine was not obviously non-level, but I figured why not optimize?

If the floor flexes, you would want too reinforce that.

If you want a nice-looking floor that you can DIY, the "floating" laminate floors give a lot of bang for the buck. You need a saw, that you could rent. You lift the shoe molding/ quarter-round, leave a gap for expansion, and put the shoe molding back. Or you add new molding if none exists.

While you are at it, paint also gives great bang for the buck, and is easier if the toilet is pulled. Where does it stop? How about there.

 

[Timoteo]

The back bolt is 14 inches from the wall. ( The toilet tank itself is 2 inches from the wall.) Assume that is enough clearance that I can buy a any new toilet from Lowes.

I plan on varnishing the wood floor (see attached photo of wooden kitchen floor leading into back porch). The back porch area and bathroom have rubber mat/flooring over wood. No need to keep that, right?

So I should remove toilet.... also remove rubber flooring/mat. Buy new toilet (might as well... here in CA, you must have a low flow toilet to sell house). Floor feels solid right now, but will see if there is damage after removing toilet.

Use shims to level new toilet. (do you fill in the gap with anything, or is the toilet just sitting above the floor with a gap?)

Do I need to get under the house for any reason? Please tell me what I am missing along the way that will cause me to pull my hair out!

 

[Reach4]

The back bolt is 14 inches from the wall. ( The toilet tank itself is 2 inches from the wall.) Assume that is enough clearance that I can buy a any new toilet from Lowes.

If you are OK with having a 2.5 inch gap, you can buy a 12-inch rough-in toilet -- the most common type. There are toilets made for 14 inch rough. Some of those have an extra big tank to fill the gap, and a few actually will move the toilet front 2 inches closer to the wall. That is best, but it is more costly (maybe $700+ vs $200).

I plan on varnishing the wood floor (see attached photo of wooden kitchen floor leading into back porch). The back porch area and bathroom have rubber mat/flooring over wood. No need to keep that, right?

Sand then varnish, I hope. That would look nice. I am not a pro.

Use shims to level new toilet. (do you fill in the gap with anything, or is the toilet just sitting above the floor with a gap?)

You apply acrylic caulk, such as "clear" Polyseamseal, around most of the base. Do a search for polyseamseal in the search box above for various discussions.

Do I need to get under the house for any reason? Please tell me what I am missing along the way that will cause me to pull my hair out!

Probably not, but maybe. Post a picture of the toilet flange area when you lift the toilet.

A bathroom "spacesaver" can give you some shelves that can help you hide a gap cheaply.

 

[Timoteo]

well, I got the toilet off. It was held in from bolts that screwed directly into the floor. I don't see a flange. It seems the toilet was just set over the hole?

This is what it looks like underneath.

 

[Reach4]

That doesn't look so good to me.

I would think you might want to pay a plumber to get you a new closet flange with a 12 inch rough. But barring that, I would maybe put down a Danco Hydro Seat. That is is like repair ring with a tail. Use wax ring under, and form the wax to fill up all of the gaps. Read up on that, and see what you think. Maybe somebody has a better idea.

About 14 inches from the center of the hole to the wall?

 

[Terry]

It kinda looks like a cast iron pipe down there with a lead arm to a flange.
I would keep it at the 14" rough for now. A little space behind the tank isn't a big deal.
You don't need the extra hold down bolts that some of the 14" bowls used.

If you looking at a home center toilet, maybe a Kohler brand. For American Standard I prefer the Cadet series over the Champion.

 

[Timoteo]

It kinda looks like a cast iron pipe down there with a lead arm to a flange.
I would keep it at the 14" rough for now. A little space behind the tank isn't a big deal.
You don't need the extra hold down bolts that some of the 14" bowls used.

If you looking at a home center toilet, maybe a Kohler brand. For American Standard I prefer the Cadet series over the Champion.

Yes, it is a cast iron pipe directly under there. Here is a phot where I cut away the rubber mat that was over the wood floor.

So what do I do now? Is it time to call a plumber? Is this something I can do myself.... can I attach a flange I buy from the store?

FYI - The guy that finished my kitchen floor isnt available right now.... so my biggest concern is having a working toilet.... and then later having the floor underneath varnished. But that is later.

 

[Terry]

The main thing will be securing the closet bolts there. There is either a cast flange there under all that, with slots for closet bolts, or it's a lead flange of some sort. It will need to be exposed to see what you have there. If a flange needs to raised a bit, something like this may work.

A rotohammer comes in handy for securing to concrete.

 

[Timoteo]

There is nothing attached to the floor. There are just two small holes where lag bolts held the toilet down.

Here are photos of the underside of the toilet. It appears there was a plastic funnel thingy attached to the underside of the toilet with a whole lot of wax. Then the entire underside of the toilet was covered in wax. Then the toilet was attached to the floor using lag bolts directly into the wooden floor.

Here is the hole.... I guess that is a metal flange inside it. Not sure. Am I supposed to somehow replace that? Or do I set a new something on top of it?

 

[Terry]

Looks like lead without a flange.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

That is OR was a Lead flange.. It almost looks like it could reach above the floor. Be very careful with it. You might be able to gently and softly bring that lead back up to the floor level.

When I do those, I use the rubber handle of my hammer to straighten the lead and bring it back up to the floor level. Then fold the lead over the floor like a T or L shape. That is the seal that your wax will make between the plumbing and your toilet. There shouldn't be any holes in it or its shot.

Or if the flange Terry posted reaches down to the cast iron you could use that if it seals all the way around.

Or if you can access the brass ferrule under the lead, install a shielded coupling with a plastic pipe and a new flange to the floor level.

 

[Reach4]

Here is the hole.... I guess that is a metal flange inside it. Not sure. Am I supposed to somehow replace that? Or do I set a new something on top of it?

That looks like a cast iron pipe below the lead. Cast iron attracts a magnet.

What is the ID? I is it 4 inches?

How long is the vertical section of the cast iron that you can see before it curves?

 

[Timoteo]

lead flange is 4 inches long. unable to straighten it. for the most part, it is level with the wooden floor.

The cast iron pipe continues down 27 inches (including the 4 inches of the flange).

The interior diameter of the lead flange is 4 inches.

Do I just buy the 3 inch closet flange that Terry showed and screw that to the floor?

Attached is a photo. on the left and right of the drain are two holes where lag bolts held the toilet in. The hole on the left must have gotten wet. I scraped away the wet part of the wood. The hole is now bigger than the lag bolt. Will that prevent me from attaching a closet flange to the floor? The rest of the floor feels solid.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Cut the cast iron off, install a replacement section of pipe with a new flange that is screwed to whats's left of the floor.. while you or someone you hire is under there, screw some plywood around the hole where the flange goes through to screw the flange screws into. That old wood is old.

 

[Timoteo]

you said: "cut the cast iron off". The pipe is cast iron all the way down. connecting to more cast iron pipes. I am not sure what you mean.

 

[Timoteo]

The main thing will be securing the closet bolts there. There is either a cast flange there under all that, with slots for closet bolts, or it's a lead flange of some sort. It will need to be exposed to see what you have there. If a flange needs to raised a bit, something like this may work.

A rotohammer comes in handy for securing to concrete.

since I have a 4 inch cast iron pipe, should I buy a 4 inch gasketed closet flange?

 

[Reach4]

since I have a 4 inch cast iron pipe, should I buy a 4 inch gasketed closet flange?

Do I just buy the 3 inch closet flange that Terry showed and screw that to the floor?

The 4-inch PushTite can be extended. If you can clean up the inside of 4-inch cast iron , that would be a nice solution. To extend, cut the PushTite, and glue a 3-inch pipe piece inside.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/push-in-toilet-flange.69469/ #3 has pic of 887-GPM extended with 3 inch PVC. Here is the picture:

https://www.pexuniverse.com/uploads/docs/pdf/sc-fl-ext-pushtite.pdf is the instruction sheet.