Concerned Noob has two issues with well replacement pump

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arcman49

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I would like to know why my pump is drawing beyond the specified amps 7 GPM (start up) to 6 GPM (draw down).

(Sorry if this is wordy but I figured I should include as much info as I can up front. )

Our well showed symptoms of a leaking check valve so I pulled the pump. It was cycling a few times an hour when there was no demand. Upon inspection, a piece of a stage had broken off and lodged in the pumps check valve. The pump was on its last leg with a 1/4" of clearance on the top bushing and the top few impellers were destroyed. The other check valves on the pipe were in bad shape too, one stuck open.

Our well is 25 years old, 399 ft deep, 3 gpm and the pump is hung on 1" schedule 80 pvc at 340 ft. The well drillers report showed static water level at 110 ft., Gravel & Clay down to 56 ft., Hard Pan 56-57 ft, and then Limestone down to 399. When we pulled the pump, after 80 feet or so there was a considerable amount of rust attached to the pipe and the torque arrestors. You could wipe if off the pipe by hand. Almost looked like it was floating and attached itself to the pipe as it was pulled up.

The old (original) pump was a Burks 7SN21a. 3/4 hp, 21 stage 5 gpm pump. (info here: https://quicksilver.epa.gov/work/05/506823.pdf - page 13) There has been only two of us in the house the entire time. We've never showed signs of running out of water.

I decided on a Sta-Rite replacement pump and after a couple of emails and phone calls to them they helped narrow my application down to a S5P4HS07221-02. Specs similar to the Burks. 5gpm, 3/4 hp, 18 (or 19?) stage. Before installing, I checked the static level in the well and it was at 64ft. Could this be because of the large amount of rain here lately in southeast Wisconsin?

We installed new check valves, pipe and stainless couplers but not the 12ga. wire. It looked fine.

Years ago I installed a 22" whole house filter because of the water being cloudy and seeing a fine grey sediment in the toilet tanks. That filter is right off the well inlet to the house but there is also a 'T' it shares for a spigot. The filter has a valve on the inlet so I can block it from the pump and run water directly from the pump through the spigot.

We started the pump and immediately it had the usual fine grey silt but it also included fine pieces of what again looked like rust, small enough to get through the pumps screen. It pumped at 7 gpm for about 45 minutes when the neighbor (who helped me on the install) mentioned we should check the current flow of the pump. The manufactuers specs show continuous 5 amps and the service limit at 6.1. Using a RMS clamp on ammeter it showed 6.5 amps. Somewhat worried, we shut it off for the day and checked it the next day.

Immediately it showed similar current, 6.3 - 6.5. We ran it for over an hour and it stayed at those numbers. We stopped the pump briefly and restarted and the current went to 6.8-6.9 amps.

We checked the resistance of the pump and wire and it was within spec, Voltage at the top of the well was 237.

I called Sta-Rite and they said this would reduce the life of the motor and recommended using a flow restrictor at the pump. We tried restricting the flow to 4 gpm via the spigot and it didn't reduce the current draw. Could it be the sand and silt is causing the increase in amperage?

Any comments on this would be appreciated.

Now the second issue. After pouring a gallon of bleach down the well and running the hose back into it for 30 minutes, the water now looks awful. I suppose that's from washing the walls of the iron pipe. It's brown in color and after filling a five gallon bucket you can't see your fingers three inches deep. We ran if for over an hour and the rust subsided but it's still cloudy, with some grey silt and fine black sand. Maybe half a teaspoon in five gallons. I assume this is what wore out the original pump.

Will this eventually clean up or am I a candidate for a sand screen?

Thanks for your time.

Lee Hagen
Delafield,WI
 
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Reach4

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ur well is 25 years old, 399 ft deep, 3 gpm and the pump is hung on 1" schedule 80 pvc at 340 ft. The well drillers report showed static water level at 110 ft., Gravel & Clay down to 56 ft., Hard Pan 56-57 ft, and then Limestone down to 399. When we pulled the pump, after 80 feet or so there was a considerable amount of rust attached to the pipe and the torque arrestors. You could wipe if off the pipe by hand. Almost looked like it was floating and attached itself to the pipe as it was pulled up.
Your static water level might have 80 ft for a good while, setting the level of deposits. In any case, if you pull the pump again, I would set it higher than it is now. Maybe down 200? Maybe only up 20 ft from where it is, but to get it above the settled stuff you are sucking up?

How far down does your casing go? I am not a pro.

The current starting your motor would be way over 7 amps.

Considering your static water level, I would go with a 7 GPM 3/4 HP pump or a 7 GPM 1/2 HP pump. But then maybe the person putting the pump in expected the water level to drop a lot potentially.
 
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arcman49

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Things are improving today. I ran the pump for 30 minutes and it has cleared considerably. The water is still cloudy but I can now see down around 10 inches in a five gallon bucket and just trace amounts of silt in the bottom. Still pulling 6.7 amps.

Is it possible that over the years there could be 50 feet of debris in the bottom of the well?
 

arcman49

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Not really. After six months or so, there would be around a teaspoons worth in the bottom of the filter. But, the filter pleats would be coated in this fine grey (consistent with toothpaste) silt.
 

LLigetfa

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The low GPM rate from the old pump would have prevented most of the sediment from stirring up but the new pump producing more GPM is more likely to stir up the sediment. You cannot limit the GPM from the pump to the tank the way a dole valve would at a hose bib so that test was dubious.

My well has a problem with sediment getting stirred up at higher GPM flow rates. I regulate the GPM by partially closing the bypass on my micronizer which essentially then acts just like an adjustable dole valve. Some folks will use a partially closed ball valve as a dole valve.

How large of a pressure tank do you have? A large tank causes the pump to move high GPM for longer as it needs to fill the tank plus what you consume is over and above that. I would suggest a Cycle Stop Valve to act as a variable dole valve to lower the GPM to just a little more than what you are consuming at the time.

If you plan to open the well and pull up the pump, I suggest you get rid of all the extra check valves. Then rent a large air compressor and air lift out all the sediment before putting the pump back in.
 

Craigpump

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Your static water level might have 80 ft for a good while, setting the level of deposits. In any case, if you pull the pump again, I would set it higher than it is now. Maybe down 200? Maybe only up 20 ft from where it is, but to get it above the settled stuff you are sucking up?

How far down does your casing go? I am not a pro.

The current starting your motor would be way over 7 amps.

Considering your static water level, I would go with a 7 GPM 3/4 HP pump or a 7 GPM 1/2 HP pump. But then maybe the person putting the pump in expected the water level to drop a lot potentially.

Neither one of those pumps would be suitable for a 340' installation.
 
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Craigpump

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The sediment wouldn't concern me. The well hadn't been disturbed for years, so there could be a lot of accumulation on the borehole. The water became increasingly more dirty when you chlorinated and washed the well down. There could also be an accumulation of sediment in the tank that is being flushed out by the increased velocity of the new pump.

We always tell our customers to run the water for 10 minutes & shut it off for 60 minutes, continue that cycle until the water is clear & chlorine free.

The years of pumping sediment may have wiped out the pump. Burke pumps weren't big sellers here in CT, so I've never seen one but I presume it had plastic impellers. Eventually the sediment will eat up and destroy the plastic.

The StaRite pumps from 15-20 years ago were good units, they had Delrin impellers & used Franklin motors, I installed them by the truck load. Now, I would not even consider any new pump made by Pentair especially those with a CentiPro motor on it.
 

arcman49

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Late Sunday the water finally cleared up and no chlorine odor. One down.

The flow vs. amperage is still puzzling. For our test, the flow from the pump goes directly through the hose bib and the valve to the pressure tank is closed. With this arrangement we were able to cut the flow down to 4GPM. From 7GPM down to 4GPM the current draw remains flat at 6.3 to 6.9 amps. Sta-Rite specifies service factor amps at 6.1 amps.

A call to Sta-Rite said this would reduce the life of the pump (six months... five years?) and recommended a Dole valve at the pump. (shouldn't they have mentioned that when they sized the pump for me?)

If a Dole valve would reduce the motor current draw, how is it different from restricting the flow at the hose bib? Would it have to be placed at the bottom?

The Burks must have been a decent pump. 25 years later and still pumping... (but for how long?)

burks-impellers.jpg
 
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Reach4

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If a Dole valve would reduce the motor current draw, how is it different from restricting the flow at the hose bib? Would it have to be placed at the bottom?
Any place before the pressure tank and pressure switch would be equivalent.

Could it be that your meter reads high?
 

arcman49

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Two different clamp on meters. Mine read a bit higher than the neighbors RMS meter. We also jumped my Amprobe DMM using a switch for start up and it was the same. Not once did we see anything lower than 6.3 amps.
 

Texas Wellman

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Franklin shows 6.8 amps as the full load amps for a 3/4 HP motor (8 amps max load). I have looked at the other motor MFG's and found that they are all similar when it comes to the ratings of the motors. IMO you're right where the book says you need to be.

http://www.franklinwater.com/more/s...rs/page-13/#Single-Phase-Motor-Specifications

Edit: I looked at the specs for that motor. IMO Pentair (or Faradyne) has the ratings a little differently than Franklin. I still think it's about right for the motor/pump you have, I wouldn't worry about it much.
 

Valveman

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Franklin shows 6.8 amps as the full load amps for a 3/4 HP motor (8 amps max load). I have looked at the other motor MFG's and found that they are all similar when it comes to the ratings of the motors. IMO you're right where the book says you need to be.

http://www.franklinwater.com/more/s...rs/page-13/#Single-Phase-Motor-Specifications

Edit: I looked at the specs for that motor. IMO Pentair (or Faradyne) has the ratings a little differently than Franklin. I still think it's about right for the motor/pump you have, I wouldn't worry about it much.

I was thinking the same thing. But the specs on that Pentek motor says service factor of 6.3 amps. Doesn't sound right to me either.
 

Reach4

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I was thinking the same thing. But the specs on that Pentek motor says service factor of 6.3 amps. Doesn't sound right to me either.
Maybe they are on to a later version where they have gone to less copper or even aluminum. The document with those amps is not fresh IMO.
 

Craigpump

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Maybe they are on to a later version where they have gone to less copper or even aluminum. The document with those amps is not fresh IMO.

CentiPro supplied Pentair with aluminum wound motors a few years back. They lied about it, said those motors only went to a few select markets, and there had been no issues. Everyone I put in failed.

I'll probably never install another Pentair pump.
 

arcman49

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Just wanted to say thanks to all for the input. In the end I decided to leave it as is and hope it lasts. Next project like this, I'll do some more research before deciding which manufacturer to choose.

Lee
 
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