Closet flange installed incorrectly

[Splorg]

I have come here in desperation, as I'm sure many have before. Bear with me as I spin my tale of wastewater woes.

A few nights ago, the toilet in our second floor bathroom began to leak when flushed, and only when flushed, down through the ceiling of the stairwell below it. Not a lot, but enough to rapidly begin rotting away the floor it's mounted to if it's affected, and certainly enough to destroy the ceiling below and our hardwood floors.

I'm certainly not a plumber. Frankly, if not for PEX and SharkBite I'd be the next thing to useless with plumbing tasks; however, I'm pretty handy and of average intelligence, so I figure I can handle this. Of course, I assume that the wax ring has begun to leak, and I am also pretty sure I can make the repair. I've seen it done and assisted a few times, so armed with a new standard wax ring with polypropylene insert, some basic tools and disposable putty knives, I set to work.

I won't bore you with the repair itself, but I did inspect the closet flange (metal flange on PVC, was tight to the floor and didn't appear damaged in any way), and the toilet underside (ceramic intact, no cracks or deformation of any kind that's visible). Satisfied with this, I replaced the closet flange bolts with a pair of new ones I picked up, because, hey, why not, right, install the new ring on the closet flange, and install as indicated otherwise, making sure to keep the toilet level on it's way down, and to level it afterward. Tighten the whole thing up, reattach the water line, double check, turn the water on and watch for leaks. Everything seems good.

Then I flushed it. Good Lord does it leak now!

Puzzled, I turned to YouTube. Sureset bet looks like I'll be installing a new closet flange next. Return to the hardware store, coming home with another wax ring and a new flange kit, the kind that's all PVC with the huge silicone rubber seal on the bottom. Disassemble everything, clean off more stupid gooey sticky wax. Get the rest of my tools, another cup of coffee, and begin mentally stepping through the job to verify I have everythin.....

....then I see it.

I should have known to be on the lookout for some less than logical plumbing work, given the state of some of the other plumbing "repair" the previous owner of our home executed (like the entire undersink drain and the hack job he did to connect the dishwasher) that I've found in our 7 years of living here. If I'm not a plumber, this guy is either a plumbers nightmare or wet dream, if he bills by the hour.

Find attached a photo of the existing flange. Of particular interest is the piece of PVC with saw marks on it that he apparently jammed *inside* the flange. Not shown is the other end of the drain pipe, which he then jammed *over* this smaller piece. The watertight seal it maintained for this long was created by - you guessed it - friction and copious amounts of PVC cement. -_-

My question is this: I'm working an absolute nightmare of a schedule for the next few weeks, and I don't have time to take on a repair of this magnitude; I am also living in a house with 3 women. We have a disused toilet in our basement, but the basement is damp and sort of smelly, and that toilet doesn't like to flush, requiring a good plunging for even a partial flush (a project for another time).

Would it be theoretically possible to affect a TEMPORARY repair, of a few weeks, by caulking the snot out of the joint between the existing flange and the smaller pipe inside it, untill I have time to tear down the ceiling and cut this whole mess out to replace it correctly? I'm thinking of using a waterproof flexible silicone caulking intended for bathrooms and kitchens; letting it cure for 24 hours, and remounting the toilet. Again, this would only be for a few days to two weeks. I can only listen to my wife gripe and my girls complain for so long.

Your thoughts on the matter are appreciated, and thank you in advance for sharing any insight or expertise.

 

[Reach4]

It is not clear where the problem is from your description. Where is the suspected lack of seal... A, B, C, D?

What is the ID of that inside pipe? How far below the floor is the top of that pipe.

It may be that a DANCO HydroSeat or a Push-Tite Gasketed Closet Flange would bypass the problem area if A and D is the place you suspect.

There is also the possibility of a gap-filling compound that would work with PVC. These are supposed to work with PVC: https://www.jbweld.com/collections/plastic-composite-pvc

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Splorg]

It is not clear where the problem is from your description. Where is the suspected lack of seal... A, B, C, D?

What is the ID of that inside pipe? How far below the floor is the top of that pipe.

It may be that a DANCO HydroSeat or a Push-Tite Gasketed Closet Flange would bypass the problem area if A and D is the place you suspect.

There is also the possibility of a gap-filling compound that would work with PVC. These are supposed to work with PVC: https://www.jbweld.com/collections/plastic-composite-pvc

Thank you very, very much for your Swift response.

What may not be obvious is the joint indicated by A and D is where i suspect the failure, and the pipe inside the flange "funnel" is indeed a separate piece of pipe, complete with saw marks where the piece was cut. Not sure of the ID, sorry, youngest took off with my tape measure. Eyeball says about 3", and that begins about 2.5" from where the closet flange is secured to the subfloor, but I am a computer nerd by trade, so I'd take that with several large grains of salt.

Another issue is that if I install the push-tite type flange that would in effect bypass where I suspect the leak to be, it would increase the thickness of the flange to a point where the toilet *may* no longer make any contact with the floor. The aluminum flange "bezel" for lack of a better word is about 1/8" thick and sits atop the subfloor. Every press-in flange repair piece I've seen would add at least another 1/8" to that, and I cannot remove the existing flange without cutting it out from below or otherwise mangling it that I can see as it all seems to be very thouroghly glued together. I will investigate the JB Weld this evening.

I'd sure love to be missing something here, an easier way to repair it maybe; and I have very little experience with plumbing repairs, so if I'm not understanding what you mean, missing something completely obvious, or not answering your questions in a way that helps, I apologise. Again, thank you so much for your help.

 

[Jadziedzic]

Looks like an outside fit flange; it's possible the person who installed it "forgot" to glue the flange to the riser. You might be able to unscrew the existing flange from the floor, pull it up, and then prime/re-cement the flange to the riser and re-install the mounting screws.

 

[Reach4]

I presume that separate piece of pipe is not loose.

What the picture shows could be normal. Suppose there was a 3 inch sweep elbow down there.

Into that, there could be a piece of pipe sticking up. And on that could be an outside 3 inch closet flange.

You could test for a leak there by blocking the elbow with a test ball. http://www.homedepot.com/p/CHERNE-3-in-Single-Size-Test-Ball-Plug-270032/100160348 Then pour water inside. You can also have an extender flex hose for the air to the test ball so that you can add or remove air from a distance.

Yet there is a leak. At A B C D? Don't know. The epoxy would make sure there was no leak there. Maybe clean the area with PVC primer first to give it good tooth, and then let the primer dry. Or use sandpaper. I would avoid putting too much epoxy to not mess up the inside of the pipe, in case you want to put in some kind of inside flange. If the leak is not at ABCD, then where is it?

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....drain-pipe-on-3-steel-pipe.60569/#post-449676 has a picture I took with some dimensions. That one with the stainless ring is hard to find today, but one with a plastic ring may have similar dimensions.

 

[hj]

Your photos do not really tell us much, but since the various pipe sizes do NOT snugly "telescope" together, I assume that your assumption may be incorrect.

 

[Splorg]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I was unaware that there was an outside fit flange. The only ones I have ever seen had been inside the drain pipe witch to me is the only way that makes good sense as far as watertight service. It looks like I have a good deal more reading to do.

Unfortunately it's time for me to go to work for the evening so I will be stopping on my way home and purchasing some supplies and I will let you know how the J-B Weld works out at least for the time being. Could I consider the J-B Weld or a similar product to be a permanent repair? Or is this something best use the only temporarily until I have time to replace the drain tubing from the closet flange the entire way to the vertical waste water pipe in the first story wall?

 

[Reach4]

The majority of 3 inch closet flanges are outside. A popular flange type can go either inside 4 inch, or outside of 3 inch.

Also, they have flanges that fit into a fitting as a piece of pipe would. They call that a spigot type.

If you do go into that ceiling and replace things, you may want to use a "closet bend". It often connects to 3 inch pipe, but is 4 inches up top. Each end can be "hub" (accepts pipe) or spigot. All kinds of permutations.

Could I consider the J-B Weld or a similar product to be a permanent repair?

If the leak stops as a consequence of applying the J-B Weld, I would consider it permanent. I am not a pro.