Cleaning mineral deposits from Sanigloss

[tombstonedrug]

Terry, thanks for the straight scoop on cleaning CEFIONTECT bowls. I live in a hard water area. I have three Toto toilets, a Guenevere, a Performance and a Drake. Two have CEFIONTECT finishes. They are extremely difficult to keep clean, much less shiny. The non CEFIONTECT toilet is a typical, beautiful, efficient toilet. After two years of following Toto's vague, ambiguous instructions for cleaning the CEFIONTECT bowl, I started using Barkeepers Friend and Lysol toilet bowl cleaner on one CEFIONTECT toilet while cleaning the other using Toto's directions. I've continued that cleaning process for a little over three years now. The CEFIONTECT bowl that I followed Toto's cleaning instructions on continues to have a shiny white bowl, with an ugly hard water ring at the water line. The CEFIONTECT bowl that has been cleaned more aggressively has a dull finish which quickly turns the color of urine (until it's scrubbed again) but which does not have an ugly hard water line. The non CEFIONTECT toilet looks better than either CEFIONTECT toilet bowl and requires much less effort to clean.

I'm sending up the white flag and ordering a new, non CEFIONTECT bowl for my 'yellowing beauty'. I hate to spend $180. I wish I could just drip some Visine in the bowl and get the red, er.., yellow out, but I have ruined the bowl. I'll keep the rest of the toilet because you just can't beat Toto toilets. For their part, Toto needs to respect their loyal customers enough to give specific cleaning instructions, especially for hard water applications. I'm of the opinion that CEFIONTECT and hard water are incompatible and if that's the case, I'd like to see Toto state that in their brochures.

Thanks to everyone who has been working to discover the secret of a successful CEFIONTECT shine!

 

[Alternety]

Thanks for the input. I think I will postpone my cleaning change and see if anyone else posts any similar results.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Hackney plumbing]

Terry, thanks for the straight scoop on cleaning CEFIONTECT bowls. I live in a hard water area. I have three Toto toilets, a Guenevere, a Performance and a Drake. Two have CEFIONTECT finishes. They are extremely difficult to keep clean, much less shiny. The non CEFIONTECT toilet is a typical, beautiful, efficient toilet. After two years of following Toto's vague, ambiguous instructions for cleaning the CEFIONTECT bowl, I started using Barkeepers Friend and Lysol toilet bowl cleaner on one CEFIONTECT toilet while cleaning the other using Toto's directions. I've continued that cleaning process for a little over three years now. The CEFIONTECT bowl that I followed Toto's cleaning instructions on continues to have a shiny white bowl, with an ugly hard water ring at the water line. The CEFIONTECT bowl that has been cleaned more aggressively has a dull finish which quickly turns the color of urine (until it's scrubbed again) but which does not have an ugly hard water line. The non CEFIONTECT toilet looks better than either CEFIONTECT toilet bowl and requires much less effort to clean.

I'm sending up the white flag and ordering a new, non CEFIONTECT bowl for my 'yellowing beauty'. I hate to spend $180. I wish I could just drip some Visine in the bowl and get the red, er.., yellow out, but I have ruined the bowl. I'll keep the rest of the toilet because you just can't beat Toto toilets. For their part, Toto needs to respect their loyal customers enough to give specific cleaning instructions, especially for hard water applications. I'm of the opinion that CEFIONTECT and hard water are incompatible and if that's the case, I'd like to see Toto state that in their brochures.

Thanks to everyone who has been working to discover the secret of a successful CEFIONTECT shine!

Thanks for posting that information. How many times did you use bar keepers friend? You know I have been recently talking abouthow 1.6 gal toilets do not wash the bowl very well. That seems to be a common theme. Before the 1.6 toilets hit the market I never had any complaints about dirty bowls.....unless the toilet was routinely not flushed after using it. We have very good water that does not stain the bowls. I get alot of complaints about the bowl not being washed no matter how much money they spend on a toilet.

 

[tombstonedrug]

Thanks for posting that information. How many times did you use bar keepers friend? You know I have been recently talking abouthow 1.6 gal toilets do not wash the bowl very well. That seems to be a common theme. Before the 1.6 toilets hit the market I never had any complaints about dirty bowls.....unless the toilet was routinely not flushed after using it. We have very good water that does not stain the bowls. I get alot of complaints about the bowl not being washed no matter how much money they spend on a toilet.

I used to clean the CEFIONTECT toilet weekly with Lysol Toilet Bowl Cleaner and monthly with Bar Keepers Friend. As the CEFIONTECT finish has deteriorated, the bowl now requires twice weekly scrubs with Lysol. It looks nice for a day or two, but within three days it's dull and yellow. I believe that the 'now damaged' CEFIONTECT forms a substrate for urine and calcium to adhere to. What results is a yellowish toilet bowl below the water line and yellowish streaks coming from under the rim, where the flush water dribbles the last few ounces out. What's worse is that a smell or urine develops as quickly as the color change, so it's pretty easy to see, and smell, the source of the problem

Regarding the 1.6 g/fl toilets, I think you are probably correct. However, all of our toilets are 1.6 g/fl Toto models and the only one that doesn't stay clean with routine flushing is the damaged CEFIONTECT toilet.

Changing the subject a bit, I've noticed that the waterless urinals that are popping up in commercial buildings are staying cleaner and shinier than comparable age traditional water flush urinals. For our area, it's the hard water that deposits on toilets that cause material to stick to the surface, so no matter how much water is used to flush the bowl, once the flush stops, the water begins to evaporate and the minerals are deposited. Flushing may help clear some of those deposits, but it is a losing battle which is best won with acids and/or abrasives.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I don't yet own a Toto, but in the common theme of the thread it sounds like the problem is not the bowl, but the water.

I know that when I got a water softener, my bowl cleaning days were reduced greatly.

 

[Hackney plumbing]

I used to clean the CEFIONTECT toilet weekly with Lysol Toilet Bowl Cleaner and monthly with Bar Keepers Friend. As the CEFIONTECT finish has deteriorated, the bowl now requires twice weekly scrubs with Lysol. It looks nice for a day or two, but within three days it's dull and yellow. I believe that the 'now damaged' CEFIONTECT forms a substrate for urine and calcium to adhere to. What results is a yellowish toilet bowl below the water line and yellowish streaks coming from under the rim, where the flush water dribbles the last few ounces out. What's worse is that a smell or urine develops as quickly as the color change, so it's pretty easy to see, and smell, the source of the problem

Regarding the 1.6 g/fl toilets, I think you are probably correct. However, all of our toilets are 1.6 g/fl Toto models and the only one that doesn't stay clean with routine flushing is the damaged CEFIONTECT toilet.

Changing the subject a bit, I've noticed that the waterless urinals that are popping up in commercial buildings are staying cleaner and shinier than comparable age traditional water flush urinals. For our area, it's the hard water that deposits on toilets that cause material to stick to the surface, so no matter how much water is used to flush the bowl, once the flush stops, the water begins to evaporate and the minerals are deposited. Flushing may help clear some of those deposits, but it is a losing battle which is best won with acids and/or abrasives.

It for sure sounds like your sanigloss finish is ruined. As far as the urine smells go with the damage surface that just goes to show you the bowl doesn't get washed down really well.

I wonder if you used a liquid car wax on its surface if it would protect it better. Suck all the water out of the bowl and dry it off. Wax ita few times with some good wax and then buff it clean. Do that once a month. LOL

 

[tombstonedrug]

It for sure sounds like your sanigloss finish is ruined. As far as the urine smells go with the damage surface that just goes to show you the bowl doesn't get washed down really well.

I wonder if you used a liquid car wax on its surface if it would protect it better. Suck all the water out of the bowl and dry it off. Wax ita few times with some good wax and then buff it clean. Do that once a month. LOL

Good idea! I'll give that a try before I send up that white flag. Thanks!

 

[tombstonedrug]

I don't yet own a Toto, but in the common theme of the thread it sounds like the problem is not the bowl, but the water.

I know that when I got a water softener, my bowl cleaning days were reduced greatly.

I'm sure that a water softener would have made all the difference.

 

[SteveW]

I too have a Toto with Sanigloss that has a hard water line. I have resisted using anything abrasive so far and just live with it.

I do wonder if it would hurt to try a little acid. What I am thinking of doing is to drop the water level (by pouring a gallon of water in the bowl fast), then put some strips of paper towel on the hard water line and saturate with Lime Away for a little while - maybe 30 minutes or so?

Even if Toto says avoid acids, as we have already read here, urine is acidic so Sanigloss must therefore be able to tolerate some acid. It apparently cannot tolerate even mild abrasive.

 

[tombstonedrug]

Toto knows that toilet bowl cleaners are pretty schizophrenic

I too have a Toto with Sanigloss that has a hard water line. I have resisted using anything abrasive so far and just live with it.

I do wonder if it would hurt to try a little acid. What I am thinking of doing is to drop the water level (by pouring a gallon of water in the bowl fast), then put some strips of paper towel on the hard water line and saturate with Lime Away for a little while - maybe 30 minutes or so?

Even if Toto says avoid acids, as we have already read here, urine is acidic so Sanigloss must therefore be able to tolerate some acid. It apparently cannot tolerate even mild abrasive.

You're right! Human urine as well as human feces can be fairly acidic, sometimes as low as 4 to 5. Lysol Toilet bowl cleaner is pH 3.4, so unless it's the scrubbing of the acid in to the ceramic that is harmful to the toilet, it would seem best to follow Toto's advice and use a soft, non-bristle brush. That's what I did for quite some time. It didn't seem to damage the CEFIONTECT, but it didn't get rid of the hard water ring.

Here's what I think Toto is actually worried about. Toilet bowl cleaners vary tremendously in pH - even within the same brand. Where regular Lysol Toilet Bowl Cleaner has a pH of 3.4, Lysol Toilet Bowl Cleaner Plus Bleach has a stunningly high pH of about 13. Considering that the pH range goes from most acidic (1) to most alkaline (14), you can see that Lysol's bleach version is highly corrosive. I imagine that CEFIONTECT is some sort of an ionic alkaline ceramic material, so subjecting it to highly alkaline solutions will likely damage it.

So, it's not the acidity of urine, or some toilet bowl cleaners that's the problem. It's the alkalinity of some toilet bowl cleaners that threatens your Toto CEFIONTECT. Why Toto doesn't just endorse a brand of cleaner that is acidic, like dishwasher manufacturer's endorse Cascade or Electrosol, etc., I don't know. Terry says it's because their formulations might change over time. I suppose that's a real possibility. Many of us wouldn't mind paying extra for Toto brand CEFIONTECT cleaner that worked and saved us from taking the time to write essays on these forums!

 

[Jadnashua]

Toto isn't alone in having proprietary special glazes. It is an option or standard on some other brands. I've not compared their actual performance, but the benefits are real. Luckily, my water isn't overly hard, so I've not run into these problems. My oldest toilet with CEFIONTECT is about 10-years old now...still looks good. I'll try to research it a bit and see if other manufacturers offer different or more specific recommendations on maintenance. But, from my experience, for many, a simple brushing takes care of most all issues.

 

[Hackney plumbing]

What i dont understand is how I do not have CEFIONTECT toilets,my parents do not have CEFIONTECT toilets....my friends do not have CEFIONTECT toilets....but yet no one complains or has any trouble cleaning their toilets or the toilets staining or being dirty.

Maybe because our toilets have enough water to clean themselves. I dunno.....

 

[Joe Six Pack]

So you live in Alaska like me? Is water all the same everywhgere in the world. I see that some peo0ple use a water softener. Do they have those all places?
Evne I know that one. Water is diffeent all over. And not everyone has lots of it. Where does California get water? It's not from rain. Hre in Alaska, they shipping water to the middle east.l It doens't rain much there eithers.

 

[Hackney plumbing]

after reading a bit on TOTO's website I never see where they tell you that you cannot clean with a harsh chemical every now and then. Like to remove the hard water ring. They just tell you not to use it on a regular basis. They do tell you to clean the toilet on a regular basis. This way it cant get a build up on it to begin with that you would need to scrub it with somthign strong.

I watched a video of CEFIONTECT. I think I even see a stain at the water level in the bowl in there CEFIONTECT video. Here watch it for yourself.

http://www.totousa.com/WhyTOTO/Innovation/CEFIONTECT.aspx

The video says FEWER harsh chemicals.

That "line" is an indentation that is molded into the bowl at the water line. It's not dirt, its a curve in the bowl.
TL

 

[SteveW]

Good analysis of the situation!

I had no idea that pH of toilet bowl cleaners had that kind of spread.

I have to say I am a little disappointed in Sanigloss. There has to be something better.

For example, my favorite cookware brand is Scanpan from Denmark. It is nonstick, but not Teflon. It is a very hard coating that can stand up to metal utensils and seems to last pretty much forever. Obviously has to hold up to high heat as well. Couldn't something like that be applied to a toilet bowl, to be non-stick but also able to handle a little abrasion?

 

[Runs with Bison]

Abrasives are right out. Chances are they will be hard enough to damage the CEFIONTECT surface. That leaves acidic cleaners. Sorry, Toto, but there is no other choice. This is fundamental chemistry and hardwater tends to lay down mineral deposits that can't be cleaned with detergents. (I grew up with very hard Ozark limestone saturated well water that stained everything and was hard on valves, required lots of soap/shampoo for showering, etc.) Acidic cleaners generally are the solution. Will they damage the CEFIONTECT? Possibly.

If I had this issue today I would try the mildest acids first: weak acids, often buffered. Vinegar (acetic acid) is a typical choice. If that doesn't work then something with a citric acid component would be the next to try. I wouldn't try phosphoric acid as it is an order of magnitude stronger. Don't use any strong acids (that would include the sulfamic acid in Lime-Away.)

Once a substantial scaly ring has formed it will be difficult to remove with mild acids though.

 

[mikeinkirkland]

We have three non-Sanigloss Toto Drakes. When we bought them, you couldn't get Sanigloss, ADA height, and an extended bowl with the Drake's relatively clog-free flush system.

First off, I have to say the bowl cleaning above the water line is pretty sad on all three toilets. I'd say the water touches, at best, about 50% of the bowl area above the "spot". So they need frequent cleaning.

Second, they all develop a "hard water ring" after 6 months or so despite being in the Seattle area with our relatively soft water. If you go after the "ring" with enough elbow grease and soft scrub cleanser and/or something really acidic you can remove it. But it just comes back.

The good news is the Totos are 6+ years old and have never clogged and never needed any sort of repair. The bad news is they're relatively poor at cleaning the bowl above the water line and it frequently shows. Literally.

I've often wondered if Sanigloss, or their latest flush system, might be a worthwhile upgrade but this thread has me thinking Sanigloss is flawed unless you have ultra-soft water. If removing the inevitable hard water ring damages the Sanigloss finish, what's the point?

Toto has lots of videos claiming they're the industry leaders in "flush action research" but, frankly, our Drakes are pretty poor with respect to cleaning the bowl. Sadly it seems Toto is turning into yet another company more focused on marketing hype than genuinely delivering better products. For 90+% of the world, Sanigloss seems to be more marketing hype than of genuine benefit. And according to some in this thread, their Sanigloss toilets perform worse over the long haul.

 

[Terry]

Well, I live about 7.2 miles from you, and do clean my bowls with toilet bowl cleaner. There are no rings in my bowls, and we pull off of the same water line. They're not self cleaning. No bowl is.
I will say my bowls look like the day I installed them.

I have three bowls with CEFIONTECT.
But the one previous bowl before without never got the ring either.

 

[Derek87]

so i'm chiming in on this old thread since i haven't gotten much response on my new one and the query is similar:

- what can one use that won't ruin the CEFIONTECT finish if they have hard water?

- is it the abrasiveness of barkeeper's friend that caused the problem or the pH?

any of the prior participants on this thread have any updates?

we are about to buy and install 1-2 Toto toilets with CEFIONTECT and this conversation from a couple years ago gives me strong concerns that CEFIONTECT is not for us.

Terry - can one buy a Toto without Sangloss? (we were thinking of Ultramax IIs)

 

[Alternety]

I don't have a solution, but I will chime in anyway. I really feel I got taken for a ride with the CEFIONTECT .

We have had 3 of these for about 10 years. It has never been a simple swish to clean. The enhanced bowl cleaning that induced be to buy them is also not particularly effective. In my mind Toto has been doing some false advertising. These won't collect dirt; but if they do you can't use anything available or useful to fix it without ruining the non-stick quality; which did not work. Similar argument for cleaning the bowl when flushing. A major consideration for my bowl.

We have had only one clog; from an over achieving paper user. And that was the primary reason for selecting the Toto's. So I am happy overall.

My wife eventually refused to follow the requirement of not using a cleaner and snuck in some Lysol. From inexact observation, her bowl is no easier to clean than mine, and I have not used Lysol. With my bowl, I can never really get the ring off. We have well water without unusual chemical content.

My bottom line: Buy them for non-clogging. The rest is marketing fluff. From Terry's last post above, I would appear it was not just fluff; but an actual degradation of the product sold as a feature which costs extra money. Any plumbers out there who are also lawyers (or lawyers who are plumbers) should think about class action for fraud.