Clack WS1 not softening very long
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NHmaster3015
Master Plumber
I doubt the resin is the problem. Like Gary said, I also suspect you are exceeding the SFR on a fairly regular basis or, you have a leak somewhere. It doesn't have to be much of a leak either.
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NHmaster3015
Master Plumber
If its an SFR issue then yes. If its a leak you need to find and fix it.
Gary Slusser
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umm... not much or no scale coming out when you flush a water heater tank is normal because scale adheres to the surface of the tank and the elements if an electric heater, the drain valve is up on the side of the tank a couple inches so any loose scale below that will not be flushed out of the tank....
I just love it when yous guys that don't know what is wrong post your problem and then disagree with what you are told.... and then go off taking the easy way out, like draining the water heater.... have you done the 2 manual regenerations yet? Do you understand why you should? How about knowing the benefits to you, your resin and your problem if you did them?
If there is something wrong with your resin, what other than being damaged by the chlorine in your water do you think is wrong? I say it is not fully regenerated due to probable over running the constant SFR of 9 gpm with the 1.0 cuft you have while doing laundry while running other fixtures.
Now I may be wrong but that has much more probability than chlorine damage but.... if chlorine damage were true, you have less capacity than you did before the damage happened, no? The answer is YES, which if you think about that, it means you don't get the 9 gpm SFR AND you don't get the 20K of capacity you are programed for AND you have used up some if not all of the remaining 10K of capacity of the original 30K with new resin BUT, as yet, you've not fully regenerated all the resin. Those 2 manual regenerations at 15lbs of salt, with no water use during or between them does that.
NHmaster3015
Master Plumber
You can lead a horse to water but sometimes you need to drown it too get your point across LOL
ditttohead
Water systems designer, R&D
Chlorine damage does little to the exchange capacity, and could even potentially rise it slightly due to the broken beads (more surface area similar to fine resin) Chlorine damaged resin breaks down the crosslinking which breaks the round shape making them irregular which can cause the mushy feeling and primarily pressure loss under flow. Constantly exceeding the resins recommended flow rate will further cause the resin to fracture and shorten its life.
I am also still not seeing what test kit or how hard your water is. if you are not interested in getting a real softener test kit, then there is not much people on this site can do to help you. We can only throw out wild guesses. It makes as much sense as filling the tires on your car and determining the air pressure by kicking them...
I am also still not seeing what test kit or how hard your water is. if you are not interested in getting a real softener test kit, then there is not much people on this site can do to help you. We can only throw out wild guesses. It makes as much sense as filling the tires on your car and determining the air pressure by kicking them...
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Gary, I did the 2 regens when you said at the start of this post, it only stayed soft maybe a day longer. I will try again this weekend. I'm sorry if you take it was me "knowing it all", it's not my intention. I am just trying to figure this thing out and fix it for as cheap as possible. I have a baby on the way so I juggling projects for that along with this, so bare with me.
As for the sfr, how can that be resolved? My wife does run the dishwasher while a shower is going.
As for the sfr, how can that be resolved? My wife does run the dishwasher while a shower is going.
Many dishwashers have a delayed start feature. I am not saying that dishwasher+shower totals more than 9 GPM.
You might want to watch for those sentences that end with question marks. Here are some examples: What type of salt are you using? Have you checked the salt tank for a salt bridge?
ditttohead
Water systems designer, R&D
Shower head post 1992 is 2.5 GPM or less.
Residential dishwashers average 3 GPM,
I doubt you are exceeding 9 gpm, and even if you did on a rare occasion, it would have little affect.
I have run many systems way past the 10 GPM per Cu. Ft. recommendation, while not desirable, many commercial applications do this in order to save the capitol costs, this will cause excessive wear on all of the equipment, resin, etc. Residential applications are only being used a couple hours per day max. Exceeding the SFR on occasion (peak flow rate numbers) in a residential application will not cause the problem you are experiencing. Until you have a real softness test kit, I don't know how we can be of any further assistance to you. Hardness numbers are typically the average, not the peaks. If your incoming hardness starts to peak in excess of the average, and our system is programmed to the average... Hach 5B please.
Residential dishwashers average 3 GPM,
I doubt you are exceeding 9 gpm, and even if you did on a rare occasion, it would have little affect.
I have run many systems way past the 10 GPM per Cu. Ft. recommendation, while not desirable, many commercial applications do this in order to save the capitol costs, this will cause excessive wear on all of the equipment, resin, etc. Residential applications are only being used a couple hours per day max. Exceeding the SFR on occasion (peak flow rate numbers) in a residential application will not cause the problem you are experiencing. Until you have a real softness test kit, I don't know how we can be of any further assistance to you. Hardness numbers are typically the average, not the peaks. If your incoming hardness starts to peak in excess of the average, and our system is programmed to the average... Hach 5B please.
Mikey
Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek
And I think that's peak flow. Energy Star dishwashers use as little as 1.95 gallons per load.
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Gary Slusser
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SFR is based on gpm, not total gallons per load of laundry but I question 1.95 gallons total per load.
Broken resin beads are normally backwashed out of the softener to drain unless there is a fine mesh top basket. That causes a reduction in capacity.
Mushy resin beads very probably have closed exchange sites along with others that are lost due to the resin beads sticking together or forming clumps. Any of that will cause a loss of capacity which is proven by the corresponding loss of pressure and thereby flow through the softener.
Since the 2 manual regenerations (that I forgot had been done) seemed to increase the length of time until hard water breakthrough, I suggest doing them again and making sure the regenerations are done using 15 lbs of salt. IF using potassium chloride, add about 30% more water than the 5 gallons needed for sodium chloride. You may have to remove some salt from the salt tank to get 5 gallons or more or water in it. IF you have a safety float in the salt tank, it has to be set high enough to allow all that water without shutting off the refill.... or you measure and add 5 gallons with a bucket. Again, to do that you may have to remove some salt. You need 3 lbs per gallon; 5 gallons @ 3 lbs/gallon = 15 lbs.
Then actually do a hardness test on the cold water at the same fixture and roughly at the same time of day, for hardness each day until the day after the next regeneration to see how things go. You can also test the hot water the same way but it usually takes as long time wise for softened water to dissolve scale as it took for the scale to form. That can be many months.
Broken resin beads are normally backwashed out of the softener to drain unless there is a fine mesh top basket. That causes a reduction in capacity.
Mushy resin beads very probably have closed exchange sites along with others that are lost due to the resin beads sticking together or forming clumps. Any of that will cause a loss of capacity which is proven by the corresponding loss of pressure and thereby flow through the softener.
Since the 2 manual regenerations (that I forgot had been done) seemed to increase the length of time until hard water breakthrough, I suggest doing them again and making sure the regenerations are done using 15 lbs of salt. IF using potassium chloride, add about 30% more water than the 5 gallons needed for sodium chloride. You may have to remove some salt from the salt tank to get 5 gallons or more or water in it. IF you have a safety float in the salt tank, it has to be set high enough to allow all that water without shutting off the refill.... or you measure and add 5 gallons with a bucket. Again, to do that you may have to remove some salt. You need 3 lbs per gallon; 5 gallons @ 3 lbs/gallon = 15 lbs.
Then actually do a hardness test on the cold water at the same fixture and roughly at the same time of day, for hardness each day until the day after the next regeneration to see how things go. You can also test the hot water the same way but it usually takes as long time wise for softened water to dissolve scale as it took for the scale to form. That can be many months.
You probably cannot be confident of the history of this; that might tip the decision of replacing the resin if there is doubt.
I guess that you have read about how to do that... Some like to vacuum out the old resin, and others like to dump it out. ... and that the gravel migrates to the bottom on its own during the first regeneration. -- not that I have done this, but I expect to at some point.
Mikey
Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek
That figure was for dishwashers, not clothes washers. Energy Star washing machines (for 2014) use from 8.1 to 15.5 gallons per load.
ditttohead
Water systems designer, R&D
Once again, test kit? A grain of hardness (17.1 ppm) can "feel" hard compared to 4 ppm soft water.
Adding 30% more water when using potassium chloride is not really correct, maybe a very rough guideline. I have had difficulty in my 25 years in the water industry finding the right answers so I compiled the correct test data here on salt vs. potassium. http://www.impactwaterproducts.com/#!salt-vs-potassium/cz76 It is varies greatly based on temperature.
Adding 30% more water when using potassium chloride is not really correct, maybe a very rough guideline. I have had difficulty in my 25 years in the water industry finding the right answers so I compiled the correct test data here on salt vs. potassium. http://www.impactwaterproducts.com/#!salt-vs-potassium/cz76 It is varies greatly based on temperature.
Mikey
Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek
I wonder if you could construct a brine tank for KCl as a tank-within-a-tank device with the KCl tank surrounded by a large tank where incoming water passed, the whole mess insulated. Incoming water, whether municipal or private well, is generally at a fairly consistent temperature, isn't it? Would take more room, but wouldn'r require a control system and outside energy.
Gary Slusser
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He is using pre refill and 30% more water would be more than enough If he is using PC.
And he says "Yes, we do have laundry being done while, dishwasher or shower is being used.". And I'd bet that at times there is water used at the sinks, toilets and through the door of the 'fridge also.
And he says "Yes, we do have laundry being done while, dishwasher or shower is being used.". And I'd bet that at times there is water used at the sinks, toilets and through the door of the 'fridge also.
