Cistern Setup - Please Help

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rianno

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I am building a new home and have 2 cistern tanks (about 5000 gals each) built into my garage floor. I plan on filling one with trucked water and collecting rain water for the other. Here is the requirement:

- Use trucked water for all my interior water requirements
- I plan on UV and RO filtering this tank for interior use
- I would like a constant pressure for interior req's (no loss in pressure if laundry is running and 2 showers are on)
- Use rain water for exterior watering and toilets
- I do not have plans for a sprinker system at this point but may have in the future

Can someone recommend what to install (submersibles, CSV, bladder tanks, etc.) to make this work. I am quite new to this since I am on city water currently. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
 
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Rancher

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rianno said:
I plan on UV and RO filtering this tank for interior use
If you RO the water you don't need to UV it too (correct me if I'm wrong guys), at least that's what at least one RO company says. And if you RO the water then you will need another storage tank to hold that water because you will not get the demand you need with the typical 100 Gal/Day RO unit.
 
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Speedbump

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I would think a 1/2hp 10 gallon per minute pump would be plenty for a normal household. Unless you have one of these new crazy water wasting showers.

bob...
 
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Rancher

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I only said 3/4 HP because you've said in the past that's the smallest anyone should use... personnally I use a 1/3 HP, but then you know how I hate to waste electricity.

Rancher
 

Speedbump

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I always recommend a 1/2hp because it's more than enough pump for a normal household (one without one of those crazy showers) and you can't buy a 1/3 hp pump anymore. They aren't listed in the Betta Flo or Red Jacket book or the Franklin manual either.

bob...
 

rianno

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Thanks Fellows. I do not plan to use any crazy showers. I have 3.5 baths, laundry, kitchen, dishwasher, ice maker and outdoor taps. For the rainwater side, should I go with a second submersible, pressure tank, etc. or is there a cheaper way to feed toilets and garden hoses?
 

Speedbump

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A second sub would work good for the rainwater too. Pretty much the same setup as the other tank. Check out my pricing before buying.

bob...
 

HandyAndy

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I would probably jsut use a jet pump for the pressure system, and a for a pressure tank, bladder air tank (in my opinion over size the pressure tanks or put in a series of them, greater draw down and longer intervals between the pump turning on and off),

some of the decision is what you have for a water out let and access to the tank, and where the access is,

as far as not having a drop in pressure is to make sure that the pump you choose HAS ENOUGH GALLONS PER MINUTE for the desired max load, (water usage) plus a little extra.

(side line story, true story,)
, a family lives on the same place as the in laws (separate houses), eveytime Ma would turn on the garden sprinklers and the cattle would drink the pressure would drop, so the Kids turned up the pressure switch on the well so they would have more pressure, yes they got more pressure when no water was running but the pressure was still drop, when the garden would be watered, so they did it again and again with no results, except for they have 80 psi of static pressure, (All they did was set them selves up for premature pump failure.)
Why is they did not a well pump capable of producing the gallons needed to keep up with the flow, a few things could have been done, time the garden watering, or If they would have put smaller orifices in the sprinklers and/or a restrict or orifice on the float of the the stock tank so the gallons being used was cut back to the capability of the wells production capacity for a give pressure they would not have lost pressure

so you will need to figure up the gallons of water need at maximum use and size the pump accordingly with the flow pressure chart, from the pump manufacture,


the Water Efficiency of the RO filter may be of major concern here, the dumped water could possibly be transferred to the rain water tank.

Reverse Osmosis Systems - impact on septic systems and water use
What about water volume from reverse osmosis water treatment systems? These can vary by manufacturer with a range of 3:1 to 10:1 of waste to product efficiency. "Typically" for every gallon produced with a topo of the line system, 3 to 5 gallons goes into the septic tank. Less efficient systems (regardless of shutoffs) can dump up to 10 gallons to waste for every gallon that goes into the storage tank. Don't despair...the membranes of ten years ago dumped up to twenty five gallons per gallon of product.

For concurrence: ask the manufacturer for their efficiency, platform statement, and per cent recovery. An excellent resource for membrane information is the National Sanitation Foundation. I am not confident about the generalized information you obtain via EPA publications, Small Flows, etc. If you posture your inquiries with the reputable manufacturers, you should be able to get reliable flow information.
http://www.inspect-ny.com/septic/wateruse.htm

I have a 9000 gallon tank (above ground) that my windmill pumps into, and then for pressure I use a jet pump that is attached to a pipe under the tank, and would do again, (my FIL home had a cistern system and they pump out of it with a jet pump for a pressure system)
 

Bob NH

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If you use an RO system as you have described, you should run the RO reject water to the other tank.

Is the delivered water so bad that you need to run it through RO for showers and laundry? Most people use the RO water only for drinking, cooking, and ice making. It takes a big RO system to provide enough water for showers and laundry.
 

Gary Slusser

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rianno said:
I am building a new home and have 2 cistern tanks (about 5000 gals each) built into my garage floor. I plan on filling one with trucked water and collecting rain water for the other. Here is the requirement:

- Use trucked water for all my interior water requirements
- I plan on UV and RO filtering this tank for interior use
- I would like a constant pressure for interior req's (no loss in pressure if laundry is running and 2 showers are on)
- Use rain water for exterior watering and toilets
- I do not have plans for a sprinker system at this point but may have in the future

Can someone recommend what to install (submersibles, CSV, bladder tanks, etc.) to make this work. I am quite new to this since I am on city water currently. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
You don't say where you are located, so why must you truck water in instead of drilling a well? Trucking 5000 gallons, probably more like 3000-4000 gals at a time for timely delivery, is going to cost A LOT of bucks and... that is about as much water as 2 people use per month. More people, more water use but... you're talking using rain water for toilets etc.. It better rain a lot, and constantly.

IMO this is a bad idea and is going to be very expensive for the tanks, their installation and then the pumps, pressure tanks and separate plumbing systems for trucked and rain water, water treatment equipment AND what about maintenance of all of it?

And now the water treatment. You can not remove bacteria with an RO, all manufacturers will tell you that, regardless what some salespeople say.

You will have to use a very large and pressure boosted RO for POE treatment and then store the product water in a tank or tanks, that take up a substantial amount of floor space, and then disinfect the water prior to re-pressurizing it to deliver it for use. VERY BAD IDEA and huge purchase and maintenance costs requiring a lot of time to maintain.

You need to speak to someone that knows water treatment before you get into this any farther. Hopefully you are not in the construction phase yet. One other thing, if you have a female in this house, IMO she will not like the problems caused, especially the odor, with the rain water in the toilets and garden/flower beds etc. but, how do you intend to treat it before use and maintain the 5000 gallon tank it is stored in?

How about the 5000 gal trucked in tank?
 

Bob NH

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It is possible to treat and store rain water to make it safe. I installed a system on a rocky island in Maine that is used as a public water supply.

Rain water must be treated like surface water from lakes and ponds. In addition, the supply is limited and sporadic so it must be stored longer.

The process that I use is to filter, chlorinate, store, and filter again just before use. The disinfection kills viruses and bacteria that might get through the filter. The first filter is a cotton wound cartridge (multiple 40" long units). The final filter is a "crypto qualified" 1-micron-absolute filter by Harmsco. I use the PP-BB-20-1 found at the link. Read especially page 3. The filters are found on page 4 of the document.
http://www.harmsco.com/uploads/pdf/harmsco_polypleat_catalog.pdf
 

Bob NH

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Two 5000 gallon water tanks in the garage floor, an RO system, and all of the pumps and controls to operate it, is more than some systems that I have installed. Anyone with that kind of system is going to have to know how to operate it and maintain it. Adding a couple of small filters and a chlorinator is a small addition to that process.

I have supplied and installed systems in Nicaragua and Mexico that are operated by people with average skills. The people who operate most of my systems have other responsibilities but have no problem operating and maintaining the systems as an incidental part of their jobs. They require no more (probably less) special knowledge than maintaining the chemistry of a swimming pool or hot tub, and most people are comfortable with that sort of thing. If someone can figure out how to bake a double batch of oatmeal cookies from a single batch recipe, or hook up and program their TIVO, they can run and maintain a simple filtration and disinfection system.
 

rianno

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Thanks for all the responses. A couple of comments:

- I am building these tanks into the foundation, so the incremental costs while pouring my basement isn't huge (compared to buying tanks)
- A couple of my neighbours have drilled wells and the water is extremely hard. One of them sunk a lot of $$ into trying to use this water for household and ended up back to his cistern and trucked water.
- I will likely need 1 truck a month (3300gals)
- I will need to talk to an expert on filtration (RO, UV, etc)
- Submersibles seem to be the way to go. Less noise in the home as well.
- I have never known rain water to smell but after stored in a large tank for a period of time this may be a concern. Thanks for the ideas and link Bob NH, I will look into this. I can also put "2000 Flushes" to solve for the water in the toilets. I do plan to not use the first 40 gals of rainwater and filter the remaining prior to entering the tank. I like the idea of chlorine as well to kill bacteria. I am building a large one storey home so I will probably catch quite a bit of water.

Thanks again for all the replies.
 

Gary Slusser

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BobNH, I know, you are constantly reinventing the wheel in water treatment and pump systems and pooh poohing what I and others say about them. Although I have talked to, and talk to, many more consumers with water treatment equipment, or needs for it, than you do. We aren't talking second or third world here... we have more choices than the Rube Goldberg type stuff they require. They also have the desire and time to maintain it than the average American.

rianno, I am what some call an expert in water trestment. I've been doing it for over 20 years and sell to folks across the US. Just this morning I learned something I never heard of before; underground drip irrigation of the perimeter of a house foundation in Dallas TX with no preplumbed softener loop. He needs a softener etc. for his 4 person 4 bathroom house.

Anyway, my SIL is a resisdential/commercial building excavator and IMO, the cost of excavating, forming, pouring and plumbing into and out of two different water quality each 5000 gal tanks under a garage floor will be MUCH more than the cost of the largest softener I've ever sold; 5.5 or 6.0 cuft (180-192k) for $2500+/- delivered in the lower 48 States. The hardest water I've treated is 136 gpg.

What is the water analysis data for the neighbors' well water (hardness, iron, manganese if possible, TDS, pH, chlorides and sulfates at least)?
 

Bob NH

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Gary Slusser said:
BobNH, I know, you are constantly reinventing the wheel in water treatment and pump systems and pooh poohing what I and others say about them.
I haven't pooh poohed anything.

I have offered suggestions for ways to do what people want to do. If they want a filter, I explain what can be done and provide a link to where they can read about what the filter will do. If they need storage, I describe how to set up a storage system system with pump and controls that will meet their needs. If they have a spring or other surface water supply I explain how to set up filtration and disinfection that meets the treatment standards for public water supplies.

Most of the pooh pooing that I see is comments along the lines that most users are too lazy or incompetent to know when and how to change a filter, or that a water system with a pump and a pressure switch that operates over a 20 psi range is somehow devastating to their comfort and psyche.
 

Alternety

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Ultra filtration and RO can remove all bacteria, parasites, and some viruses.

Perhaps RO vendors do not cite bacteria removal for fear of a leaking filter and liability.

This is a vendor (http://www.homespring.com/technical_specifications.shtml) of ultrafilters with 0.02 micron filtration that are rated to do biological filtering. Look at the bottom of the system spec.

RO has an even smaller effective pore size.

As one of those evil engineering types, I make it a point to investigate technology for suitability. I may ask an experienced contractor for a proposal, but will still satisfy myself that it is the correct solution. Having just mostly finished building our retirement home, I have found many contractors of many disciplines, lack knowledge of current best practices and technology.
 
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