Cheapest way to lower manganese

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Charrie

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Hi all,
I need to get some advice on lowering the manganese and perhaps Iron
Here is the test results
bacteriareport1a.jpg

The water changes smell and taste over time. It used to have more of the rotten egg smell but has changed somewhat over the past year.
The toilet tank has different rings in it as I have changed the water level since it bowl spits out water when flushed. some are black while some areas are rust colored. The sink strainers tend to build up white material. I have filled a glass of water and let it sit for days and it remains clear. Right now I have a sealed gallon jug of water I drew 3 days ago and it is still very clear.

Almost 2 years ago we had some work done on the well. They added a insulated cover, changed the pressure tank, and added sediment filter you flush.
here is what it looks like. The tank is a WX-202 20 gallon tank. I was there when they did the work and I don't remember them checking the air pressure in the tank. My water pressure is 30/50. I need to call the guy who drilled the well 10 or 15 years ago and ask if he has any records. When i spoke with him last he said most in this area are 180' deep. Most of my neighbors complain about the smell as well as iron and manganese. Many complain about running dry in the summer but i have never had that issue yet. They did not shock the well either after doing the work either. The tank and most of the pipe is new and the well has never been shocked in the 4 years I have lived here. I do believe the pump has been replaced at one time as there were lots of fittings and other parts laying inside the old well house cover.
WP_20210414_004.jpg


There is a purification system in the house that was installed by the PO. The peroxide injection system is not working at the moment and has not been for 3 years. Mainly because we turned it off after it developed green mold and I don't know how to mix the water and peroxide. I found a local company that supplies food grade peroxide. I think maybe 35%?
treatmentsystem.jpg


I am now on a fixed income and would like to find a low cost solution if possible. I can do the work myself. At the time the company worked on the well, the property was not in my name and now it is.

Any thoughts and ideas are more then welcome!
Charrie

PS. This house still has polybutylene piping in it. So far there has never been any leaks since I have been here. The house is almost 30 years old and I plan to re-[plumb it with pex I guess would be easiest?
I mentioned that because I was concerned about shocking the well and it affecting the pipes. I found a thread though that said it shouldn't hurt the pipe because the chlorine is only in the pipe for a short time?
 
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Charrie

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Moving to the softener forum where you should get more help.
Thanks for relocating the post to the correct place. I wasn't sure where to put it.
I marked one of the tanks as "aeration tank" but think it is actually a "contact tank"? The peroxide is injected into the supply line before it enters into the tank. The tank has a tube on the supply side that goes all the way to the bottom of the tank so that when the treated water enters the tank, it has contact time with the water before being drawn out.

Also there is no signs of a filter ever being installed in this system.

Also, I realized that the water softener tank could be part of the new smell as it has not been ran for a couple of weeks now. I manually regenerated it today. The installer ran the drain line out through a vent and onto the ground. During the record cold temsp 2 weeks ago, I put the line under the house and closed the vent to help keeps pipes from freezing under the house.

Thanks
Charrie
 

Reach4

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You have a lot of iron. You have a lot of Mn.

I am not a pro, and have no experience with injector pumps or peroxide (H2O2). A pro might want you to replace everything except the H2O2 injection stuff. When the pump runs, when does it run? Is that when you use water or when the pump runs?

Your system is not ideal. A contact tank should ideally have a blowoff port to let you be rid of sediment. Maybe you should have a big carbon tank after the contact tank to remove residual peroxide.

For the softener, I would try treatment with Iron Out crystals. I would go for the 152 ounce bottle if available. https://www.menards.com/main/grocer...tain-remover/io30n/p-1444444183359-c-7097.htm

We can talk about the treatment-- catch up cleaning and ongoing treatment. Let's see if you get the Iron Out first.

I think you would want to be able to measure the residual H2O2 out of the contact tank. I think you might aim at 10 ppm. That is safe to drink. As to how much H2O2 to put into the solution tank initially before adding water? I don't have a number for you right now. I hope somebody suggests something.

Here are some links that I collected. I have not looked at the pages lately, and I have not even checked that the links still work. https://sensafe.com/visual-tests/?_bc_fsnf=1&Parameter=Peroxide

https://sensafe.com/waterworks-peroxide-check-lr/ stand alone....

https://sensafe.com/exact-strip-micro-hydrogen-peroxide-low-range/
uses a device to make the readings more accurate. The photometer is expensive.
I am not sure what photometer models it takes. 525nm I think eXact® EZ Photometer is one of them.
eXact® EZ Photometer plus calibration stick... Is eXact® EZ Photometer with some strips (not H2O2 included).
https://sensafe.com/exact-idip/ seems cheapest...
eXact® EZ Photometer has auto-zero.
https://sensafe.com/content/486205.pdf is manual.
https://sensafe.com/meters-page/?sort=featured&_bc_fsnf=1&Parameter=Peroxide (best link )

https://www.zoro.com/search?q=peroxide test (comes up with other stuff)

 

Charrie

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Thanks Reach4. I think you helped with advice about shocking the well when i first moved here 4 years ago. I didn't own the property then and was told that if I worked on the well, I would need to sign papers stating that I would be responsible for the well from then on! Its in my name now so its time to do something about the water.

There is a Thomas flow switch installed on the outlet side of the softener and the Steiner pump plugs into the an outlet controlled by the switch. Any time you run water in the house, the pump comes on and shuts off as soon as the flow stops. The injection fitting for the peroxide system is on the supply side before the contact tank.

I fully agree that the tank needs to be able to be cleaned out. I would really like to build a small room on the outside of my house to put all of the equipment and get it out of my laundry room. It would be much easier to service and clean outside and I wouldn't have to worry about leaks flooding the inside of the house.

I will go tomorrow and get the Iron out tomorrow. No Menards but local Ace has it. Reading the instructions it says to use when the salt is low. it if 1/2 full right now. Do I need to take some of the salt out first?
I don't remember exactly but believe it was 6 or 8 months ago when I started the softener system back up. At that time I followed advice from the forum and used bleach to sanitize the brine tank and tank. The softener regenerates every 24 hours. Right now I am living here by myself and don't use that much water. Laundry once every 2 weeks, dishes every couple of days so thinking about manually regenerating it every few days?

I need to dig up the number and call the chemical company and find out what strength their peroxide is so I can post it here.

WOW some of those kits are for professionals. Do you think I could get by with test strips or is it much more critical then that?

Again thanks
Charrie
 

Reach4

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1. For the IO, no need to remove salt or wait until the salt is low. For a batch treatment, I think it would go something like this:
1a. put maybe 2 gallons of hot tap water into a bucket
1b. Dissolve 1/2 cup of Iron Out. Stirring may be needed.
1c. Pour the water from the bucket down the brine well. Use a funnel of some sort to get the water down the brine well rather than onto the salt.
1d. trigger an immediate regeneration. Let it continue until brine with IO starts to come out of the drain line. This can be done by taste (wash out your mouth) or use a cheap TDS meter. The reading on the TDS meter will jump way up, way over 1000. I did not think ahead to tell you to get a TDS meter. Pool store, or aquarium store might have in stock.
https://www.walmart.com/search?q=tds probably not in the store, but maybe. Did not see it at Ace. https://www.acehardware.com/search?query=tds+meter

1e. put the softener into bypass. Let the softener think the cycle is continuing, but the bolus of salt+IO will be with the salt.
1f. wait maybe 2 hours, and take the softener out of bypass.
1g. trigger a new immediate regen.

2. If there is improvement, but you want more, maybe repeat step 1.

3. Going forward, you could sprinkle about a cup of IO (with the salt) in each time you pour in a bag of salt.
 

Reach4

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1. For the IO, no need to remove salt or wait until the salt is low. For a batch treatment, I think it would go something like this:
1a. put maybe 2 gallons of hot tap water into a bucket
1b. Dissolve 1/2 cup of Iron Out. Stirring may be needed.
1c. Pour the water from the bucket down the brine well. Use a funnel of some sort to get the water down the brine well rather than onto the salt.
1d. trigger an immediate regeneration. Let it continue until brine with IO starts to come out of the drain line. This can be done by taste (wash out your mouth) or use a cheap TDS meter. The reading on the TDS meter will jump way up, way over 1000. I did not think ahead to tell you to get a TDS meter. Pool store, or aquarium store might have in stock.
https://www.walmart.com/search?q=tds probably not in the store, but maybe. Did not see it at Ace. https://www.acehardware.com/search?query=tds+meter

1e. put the softener into bypass. Let the softener think the cycle is continuing, but the bolus of salt+IO will be with the salt.
1f. wait maybe 2 hours, and take the softener out of bypass.
1g. trigger a new immediate regen.

2. If there is improvement, but you want more, maybe repeat step 1.

3. Going forward, you could sprinkle about a cup of IO (with the salt) in each time you pour in a bag of salt.
 

Reach4

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1. For the IO, no need to remove salt or wait until the salt is low. For a batch treatment, I think it would go something like this:
1a. put maybe 2 gallons of hot tap water into a bucket
1b. Put on your N95 mask, because the crystals/powder goes into the nearby air as you pour and measure. Dissolve 1/2 cup of Iron Out. Stirring may be needed. Maybe I would up that to 1 cup.
1c. Pour the water from the bucket down the brine well. Use a funnel of some sort to get the water down the brine well rather than onto the salt.
1d. trigger an immediate regeneration. Let it continue until brine with IO starts to come out of the drain line. This can be done by taste (wash out your mouth) or use a cheap TDS meter. The reading on the TDS meter will jump way up, way over 1000. I did not think ahead to tell you to get a TDS meter. Pool store, or aquarium store might have in stock.
https://www.walmart.com/search?q=tds probably not in the store, but maybe. Did not see it at Ace. https://www.acehardware.com/search?query=tds+meter

1e. put the softener into bypass. Let the softener think the cycle is continuing, but the bolus of salt+IO will be with the salt.
1f. wait maybe 2 hours, and take the softener out of bypass.
1g. trigger a new immediate regen.

2. If there is improvement, but you want more, maybe repeat step 1.

3. Going forward, you could sprinkle about a cup of IO (with the salt) in each time you pour in a bag of salt.
 

WorthFlorida

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After the first treatment of iron out, close the bypass so all water goes through the softener. At a bathtub, run the cold water full blast. You should see rusty water and let it run until it is clear. You want the water in the pressure tank to be clear so it may take ten mummies or so the flush the system. Do not run the hot water just yet since you do not want to push rusty water into the WH.

As Reach suggest, run a second regen with IO. After the second time do the same, run cold water only until is is clear. Now run the hot water to purge some hard water out of the WH tank.
 

Taylorjm

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I wouldn't go with the 35% peroxide you mentioned. That's really caustic and dangerous. I use the 7% neutra Sul off amazon. The thing is once you do the peroxide injection (I don't use a contact tank, it removes the iron on contact) you will need a way to filter out the iron when it's converted. Instead of a contact tank, you really need a backwashing filter, especially with all that iron. Also, your target ppm in your drinking water is 0.2-0.4ppm. I used some test strips to set the pump level. Mine is in the target range but anything over 1ppm in the drinking water and you will taste it. It also depends what kind of pump you have and if it's adjustable or not. If not, you will have to figure out the specs on the injection rate, the gpm of your water flow to determine how strong your peroxide solution will need to be.
 

Reach4

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So as a starting point, what amount of 35% H2O2 would you add to a 15 gallon solution tank, before topping the tank up with softened water? I am thinking about 20% of the 7% amount that you use.

I have no experience treating with H2O2, but your residual target seems low. Note that the system under discussion has no carbon tank to remove H2O2, so that makes it harder to get an effective dose.

Allowed residual for chlorine is 4 ppm, which is higher than desirable. Numbers for H2O2 would be higher.
 
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Reach4

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So as a starting point, what amount of 35% H2O2 would you add to a 15 gallon solution tank, before topping the tank up with softened water? I am thinking about 20% of the 7% dose.
 

Reach4

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Thanks Reach4. I think you helped with advice about shocking the well when i first moved here 4 years ago. I didn't own the property then and was told that if I worked on the well, I would need to sign papers stating that I would be responsible for the well from then on! Its in my name now so its time to do something about the water.

There is a Thomas flow switch installed on the outlet side of the softener and the Steiner pump plugs into the an outlet controlled by the switch. Any time you run water in the house, the pump comes on and shuts off as soon as the flow stops. The injection fitting for the peroxide system is on the supply side before the contact tank.
If the pump is controlled by a sensor switch after the softener, the dosing will not be right. If you are taking a shower, is the injection pump running the whole time? With an on-off pump, and injecting before the pressure tank, the injection pump should inject when the well pump runs. To do that, you could use a relay that is controlled by the voltage being sent to the pump. Or put the flow switch in line before the pressure tank. Flow from the pump is fairly constant. If injecting based on use, the injection would normally be proportional rather than on/off. The sensor to control the proportional injection would be a proportional sensor. Proportional is more expensive for both pump and sensor.
 

Taylorjm

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So as a starting point, what amount of 35% H2O2 would you add to a 15 gallon solution tank, before topping the tank up with softened water? I am thinking about 20% of the 7% amount that you use.

I have no experience treating with H2O2, but your residual target seems low. Note that the system under discussion has no carbon tank to remove H2O2, so that makes it harder to get an effective dose.

Allowed residual for chlorine is 4 ppm, which is higher than desirable. Numbers for H2O2 would be higher.
Sure a higher residual is fine, but you will taste the peroxide. From my research you don’t want a residual more than 1ppm. When testing mine went to 2ppm and I turned it down from there to .5 ppm. At 2ppm I could smell and taste peroxide and it was a pretty strong taste. It won’t kill you but not something I’d want to drink.
 

Reach4

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Good input. What H2O2 test do you recommend?

And how much H2O2 in the tank would you suggest that Charrie start?
 

Charrie

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Thanks for all the advice! So I couldn't access the forum for a while today and went ahead from what I remembered. 1 cup of IO and 2 gallons of water down inside the brine well. Then I ran a tub full of cold water. I run the backwash into 275 gallon tote and use it as grass killer on my gravel driveway. 5 regeneration pretty much fills the tank so the cycle uses around 50 gallons. Anyway I decided to run another regeneration using the IO and after it finished, I ran another regeneration without the IO and then filled the tub again to flush out any residue.

Very interesting morning as I had put 1/2 cup of IO in my toilet tank last night. It was mostly reddish stained with a very little grayish. This morning it was solid black and everything was coated. I could not see the bottom of the tank. I started with a brush but then decided to put in a 1/2 gallon of white vinegar. Within 1/2 hour the black came right off with no problem and flushed. It was like little tiny flakes. I thought if that happened in the toilet tank, what is going on in the softener tank!

As to the injection system.
My wellhead it 300 feet away and on its own 240v electrical circuit that comes from an electrical box outside on a pole. The pressure tank and pressure switch is also up at the wellhead. The injection system, softener, and contact tank are all in my laundry room on a separate 110v outlet. I have seen diagrams where the injection fitting is going straight into the line before the pressure tank at the well head. That is not an option right now. There is no neutral up there for running 110v and the cover is one of those fiberglass hinged covers that is too small to house the injection equipment.

The flow switch is after on the softener outlet side and does run any and all the time any water is being used.
flowsw.jpg


As to the injection point. It is on the supply line that that goes directly to the contact tank. You can see the cut off valve coming off of a tee. That is where the injection feel line ties into. The electric shut off valve below is a part of a flood stop system.
cutoff.jpg


As to the pump being adjustable, yes it is.
injectpump.jpg


As to the 35% HP
Taylorjm, Do you really think it is too dangerous to fool with?
My attraction to that is that it is 1/2 price of just one gallon of Nutra Sul. That was 3 years ago and directly from the company packaging it. From all the information I have found, 1 gallon of 35% with 6 gallons of water makes 6%.
6 Gallons of water in the holding tank and then carefully pour in the gallon of HP?
In the past when the system was running, we didn't use that much water and the HP in the holding tank formed green algae. I did not know that peroxide went bad over time.

Questions..
I think I am starting to understand some basics.
The iron in my water in in a ferrous state?
The manganese is in a un-precipitated state called Manganous manganese?
A water softener can not remove manganese precipated or un-precipated and un-precipated it will damage the resin bed in short order?
The softener can only remove iron in its Ferrous state and in a ferric state, will damage the resin bed?

So part of what I am thinking, I read that HP is a potent oxidizing agent. If it is injected into the line going into the contact tank, wouldn't it oxidize the iron and manganese causing it to become un-precipatated and then go straight into my softener since there is no filter of any kind?
I also read that HP is not a adequate oxidizing agent for manganese but is for iron.

So if the water went to the softener first where some of the iron would be removed, and then into the contact tank with the HP injection where it would be converted to Ferric iron and then filtered, wouldn't that work for the iron issue?

If the IO oxidized the manganese and un-precipatated it, if the toilet tank is any indication, a filter would have to be changed daily!

One of my neighbors said that her water is "terrible". Stinks like rotten eggs like mine but hers must have ferric iron because she said that she couldn't afford the filters that clogged up weekly. My neighbor on the hill above me, she said that they have never had their well tested but that they shock the well every 6 or 8 months to control the smell. Many folks say that it is not uncommon for their well to go dry long about July and August when we get little rain. Another neighbor said that have great water but that they can only take a couple of showers and then have to wait for the well to replenish.
My well has never gone dry yet and the PO had a above ground pool here. My water does seem to change smell throughout different seasons.

Thanks
Charrie
 
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Charrie

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Oh Taylorjm about your comment " higher residual is fine, but you will taste the peroxide"
I walked into the bathroom one day when my son was only 2 years old and caught him sitting in the floor with a bottle of household HP and his words were"GOOD". I immediately called poison control and since he had only had a small swallow, they told me not to worry!

And Reach4, bought a TDS meter last year when I started saving the water to use as weed killer.

Charrie
 

Bannerman

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Household HP is 3% solution.

35% HP is usually labeled food grade when it does not contain stabilizers and other additives to extend its lifespan.

35% will be typically utilized for water treatment so as to reduce the quantity of HP needed for ongoing injection.

Because 35% can cause blisters and burns which may result in necrosis, splash proof goggles, gloves, an apron and breathing protection should be worn whenever handing the product. HP 35% needs to be sealed tightly and also kept away from incompatible materials such as organic materials, metals, acids, alkalis, combustible materials, and oxidizing agents.

Most of the iron and manganese directly from the well will be dissolved (ferrous) in the water, but oxidation will cause those metals to be converted to a solid (ferric) state which may then precipitate out from the water, or maybe easily removed with an appropriate sediment filter.

Water softener resin is not filter media and should not be utilized for that purpose.

When a water softener is utilized to remove ferrous iron and manganese, they will stick to and will accumulate on the resin beads, thereby reducing their effectiveness to further remove hardness, iron & manganese. Some choose to utilize a softener so as to not purchase a dedicated iron removal filter when there is a small quantity of ferrous iron (<1 ppm), but using a softener to remove iron is not efficient. Because 1 ppm iron will be equivalent to 86 ppm (5 gpg) hardness , additional salt will be required each regeneration cycle, and regeneration will need to be more frequent. Also, unless the raw water is acidic (<7.0 pH) an acid based cleaner such as Iron Out will also be needed on a regular basis to remove iron/manganese residue from the resin beads and softener control valve internals.

The appropriate sediment filtration system for ferric iron, manganese and hydrogen sulfide removal, will utilize Katalox Light or similar filtration media, installed in a large tank similar in appearance to a water softener which is also equipped with a back washing control valve.
 
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Taylorjm

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Good input. What H2O2 test do you recommend?

And how much H2O2 in the tank would you suggest that Charrie start?
I used this calculator. https://stenner.com/resources/pump-sizing/variable-speed-well-pump-hydrogen-peroxide/

Put in all the values and it tells you were to set the dial on the pump and it was really close to what I ended up with . I went with .5ppm as the target residual and everything told me to set the dial to 2.1. I have it injecting right before my pressure tank and the pump goes on with the well pump. I used these test strips and kept it in the <0.5ppm.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005XTZMWY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

2022-12-09 18.18.10.jpg
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