Cast iron waste line flush with concrete slab, no hub

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BigAl

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I wish to install new waste line for washing machine and utility sink reusing existing cast iron drain which at some point was cut flush to concrete slab.

Background:
house built in 1929
4" cast iron waste line previously used for kitchen but "abandoned" and fitted with AAV during previous kitchen move/remodel
Old 2" CI waste from kitchen was "connected" to 4" using concrete patch/fill, see pic

Need:
Method for tying into cast iron waste line cut flush with slab (no hub) to accommodate washing machine and utility sink

So, I have searched for inside fitting to connect 1.5" or 2" waste line to existing 4" CI but only come up with water closet flanges. To vent, I will use AAV. How might one go about accomplishing this?
 

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wwhitney

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Your image is not showing. [One way to test what others see is to open a private/incognito browser window and take a look.]

Obviously, you could remove concrete around the cast iron to allow the use of a shielded rubber coupling. But your idea of an inside connection is intriguing.

There are PVC donuts (bushings) available that allow the insertion of a new plastic DWV pipe into a cast iron hub. I imagine that with care and with the right sized donut, you could do the same into a pipe end, even though there's no shoulder to stop the donut. You'd just have to be sure to insert the donut fully and not go too far.

That's a thought, not sure if it's quite proper.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Jeff H Young

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Your image is not showing. [One way to test what others see is to open a private/incognito browser window and take a look.]

Obviously, you could remove concrete around the cast iron to allow the use of a shielded rubber coupling. But your idea of an inside connection is intriguing.

There are PVC donuts (bushings) available that allow the insertion of a new plastic DWV pipe into a cast iron hub. I imagine that with care and with the right sized donut, you could do the same into a pipe end, even though there's no shoulder to stop the donut. You'd just have to be sure to insert the donut fully and not go too far.

That's a thought, not sure if it's quite proper.

Cheers, Wayne



They make a donut to go inside a 4 inch pipe? The ID of 4 inch matches a 3 inch hub ? or a special size of donut for this application?just wondering never know when you need a trick like this. I would be chipping concrete right now!
 

Reach4

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You should measure the ID of your pipe with a digital caliper. If it is close to 3.998 inches, I have a non-standard idea for you: use the bottom part of a Sioux Chief PushTite 887-GPM extended with 3 inch PVC sticking out the top. Use a means to physically take the vertical load. Adapt the 3 inch to the size you want.
887-gpm-1.jpg
887-GPM

If you don't need good appearance, you could leave the top part instead of cutting that off, but it would need extender rings under the rim to clear the bowl. It would look non-standard, and using just the bottom would look better. Leaving the ring would sure be functional, providing that support. Or maybe cover the ring and extenders with some mortar.

There used to be an application note on the Sioux Chief site that explained how to extend a PushTite 4 inch closet flange. Here is a snip from it:
index.php


So in your case, you would glue the bottom part of the flange onto a pipe. You can see on the spec sheet that the inside is sized to take a 3 inch pvc pipe. https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/887-GPM-product.pdf

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/push-in-toilet-flange.69469/#post-515556

If your pipe is a different size, some plumber may be able to pour a lead transition for you.
 
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wwhitney

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You should measure the ID of your pipe with a digital caliper. If it is close to 4.00 inches, I have a non-standard idea for you: use the bottom part of a Sioux Chief PushTite 887-GPM extended with 3 inch PVC sticking out the top. Use a means to physically take the vertical load.
Nice idea. Leaving the flange on would be an obvious way to provide vertical support, assuming the top portion does pass a 3" pipe.

Otherwise, I think you'd need to glue in a short 3" pipe segment, cut a just over 3-1/2" hole in some plywood, slide that over the pipe segment, and glue on a 3" coupling. That way the coupling is supported by the plywood. Or if horizontal space is tight and the drain is getting reduced to 2", convert to 2" first, then do the coupling/plywood support.

Cheers, Wayne
 

BigAl

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Thanks for the responses. I was able to get the photo uploaded for reference. ID is 4 1/16". Unfortunately my digital caliper is 4" max and it is a tad wider so eyeballed with tape.
So, something along the lines of https://www.siouxchief.com/products/drainage/residential/closet-flanges/pushtite part# 886-GP.
According to spec sheet ID of pushtite is 4" then to reduce to 2" with something like https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-x-2-in-PVC-DWV-Spigot-x-Hub-Flush-Bushing-C48012FHD42/100347130 and go from there?
 

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wwhitney

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So, now I'm not sure the Push-tite would work.

There are solvent weld closet flanges that are designed to either go into 4" plastic pipe or over 3" plastic pipe, and are sized for a solvent weld connection. I.e. the OD is 4" and the ID is 3.5". The relevant push-tite is designed to go into a 4" plastic pipe and seal with a gasket. But there's no guarantee that the inner diameter of the shaft is still 3.5".

If it is, then the other question is whether the push-tite will work with the 1/16" difference between the 4-1/16" cast iron ID and the 4" ID of plastic pipe.

Cheers, Wayne
 

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Jeff H Young

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id of a 3 inch hub is 3.940 sounds like that rubber would be a bit sloppy , however remeber your plastic 3 inch going inside is slightly bigger than iron pipe perhaps making it tighter. personaly id chip out floor and put a band on it unless there is a problem the donut is not meant for this purpose in my opinion. alhtough it may work fine if its exposed and taking a chance on leak is no biggie go for it it is close! I dont think one is made specicaly for the inside of a pipe
 
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BigAl

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if i remove concrete, how much pipe needs to be exposed for a fernco?
 

wwhitney

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if i remove concrete, how much pipe needs to be exposed for a fernco?
The insertion depth on a Proflex coupling is 1", but you also need to have clearance for the screw portion of the band clamp and to tighten it.

Cheers, Wayne
 

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All, thanks for the advice. I chose to remove concrete with hammer drill and cold chisel to use fernco coupling. Effort required for removal of the concrete was much less than that put into thinking about.

New question, as this will be draining a washing machine and single utility sink, do y'all think it ok to reduce to 2" with bushing reducer immediately out of the fernco? That would mean the reduction is in the vertical plane and the remainder of the work in 2" pvc with AAV on main stack.
 

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Reach4

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New question, as this will be draining a washing machine and single utility sink, do y'all think it ok to reduce to 2" with bushing reducer immediately out of the fernco?
That's fine. What is the OD of your cast iron?

Sounds funny, but I know they call it a reducer. I would think of that as increasing from the PVC to the 4 inch. People think of it differently -- the order of construction, vs from the point of view of the flow.
 

Jeff H Young

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my thoughts as well Big Al, on the chipping no big deal for big al. Id like a cleanout , preferably a 3 inch cleanout, Not sure your code but 2 inch is legal here and never seen anyone run 3 inch for this but we got UPC code here
 

wwhitney

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All, thanks for the advice. I chose to remove concrete with hammer drill and cold chisel to use fernco coupling. Effort required for removal of the concrete was much less than that put into thinking about.
So does that leave you with a smooth cast iron exterior? Seems like a fairly smooth surface would be required for the Fernco Proflex to seal to.

New question, as this will be draining a washing machine and single utility sink, do y'all think it ok to reduce to 2" with bushing reducer immediately out of the fernco? That would mean the reduction is in the vertical plane and the remainder of the work in 2" pvc with AAV on main stack.
Ohio is on the IPC, and it has the (unusual to me) requirement that once your laundry standpipe drain combines with another drain, the combination has to be 3". https://up.codes/viewer/ohio/ipc-2015/chapter/4/fixtures-faucets-and-fixture-fittings#406.2

So assuming your cast iron is standard outer diameter (4.3"), if you want a cleanout I'd go: Fernco 3000-44 (top 1" AFF) - 4" pipe segment (top 3" AFF) - 4" cleanout tee (bottom of top hub 8" AFF) - 4x4x2 street sanitary tee (for your laundry standpipe, center of inlet is ~12" AFF, bottom of top hub 13" AFF) - 4" x 3" bushing - 3x3x1-1/2 street sanitary tee (for your laundry sink, center of inlet is ~17" AFF). You'd need to double check those heights with the parts in hand to be sure the laundry sink inlet isn't too high.

If you don't want a cleanout, you're not challenged for vertical space, and you can go: Fernco 3000-43 - 3" pipe - 3x3x2 sanitary tee (laundry standpipe) - 3x2 bushing - 2" pipe - 2x1-1/2x1-/2 sanitary tee (laundry sink).

And if your cast iron is bigger than standard outer diameter, you'd need different Fernco parts, but there should be a solution.

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. If you want a cleanout and 3" is OK, then you could use the first sequence but start with a Fernco 3000-43 and use all 3" parts. That would save you some height and be less likely to put the laundry sink san-tee too high.
 

Reach4

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A 4 inch street sanitary tee, such as Charlotte #403, could fit right into the top of the shielded coupler, and would only add 3-7/8 to the vertical height. A spigot cleanout could go into the side port. This extends out horizontally more than a cleanout tee would, but saves the vertical height vs a cleanout tee.

P.S. If you want a cleanout and 3" is OK, then you could use the first sequence but start with a Fernco 3000-43 and use all 3" parts. That would save you some height and be less likely to put the laundry sink san-tee too high.
Good one.
Put the cleanout above the santee, and there would be no vertical height increase for the trap.
 
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