Capacitor run control box - worthwhile for 1 -1.5 HP pumps? Cost?

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Ballvalve

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Just wondering... What do you pump guys pay for a Franklin CRC 1 hp QD box? Or just the plain QD box? Which do you use on 1 or 1.5 hp motors?

I see the standard control box's 1-1.5 hp [without a contactor - the big one without the quick disconnect] for $90 to $110 delivered. Seems quite low for such a block of steel with so much room for wiring, and a run cap...

Seems like not so many of these big FRANKLIN 2823008110 boxes are out in the field. For smaller pumps- why?

http://www.waterpumpsnow.com/franklin-electric-control-box-1hp-230volt/

I see the 1hp CSCR QD boxes for $120 + . Seems like they should cost less. Without the run cap, maybe $65.
Seems to me the run cap is important for longevity and vibration reduction.
 
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Valveman

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Those 1-1.5 boxes are just a big can with only a start cap and relay in them. I always use CSCR on anything 1.5HP or larger. The run cap is basically for power factor correction. It reduces the amps and energy consumption a little and makes the motor run cooler.
 

Texas Wellman

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http://franklinaid.com/2002/07/13/csir-vs-cscr-whats-the-difference/

CSIR vs. CSCR: What’s the Difference?

Posted on July 13, 2002 by copywriterfele


If you’ve heard the terms “CSIR” and “CSCR” and wondered what they mean, you’re not alone. This is a common question, and the answer may have a significant effect on how your motor runs, depending on its size and application.

Franklin Electric manufactures 2 types of single-phase, 3-wire submersible motor systems: capacitor-start/induction-run (CSIR) and capacitor start/capacitor run (CSCR). Actually, both systems use the same induction-run motor design. The difference, however, is evident in the control box.

The control box in a capacitor-start/induction-run (CSIR) system contains a relay and a start capacitor. The start capacitor is connected to the start winding in the motor (the red lead). The motor starts using both windings, but as the motor in the CSIR system comes up to speed, the relay removes the start winding and the start capacitor from the circuit. This happens in about one-third of a second, and the motor then runs on the run winding alone with no capacitor. This is why the current in the red lead of a CSIR motor will be zero after the motor has started.



The control box in a capacitor start/capacitor run (CSCR) system has 3 components: a relay, a start capacitor, and a run capacitor. The start capacitor is black, and the run capacitor is generally gray or silver. Prior to the motor’s start, both the start and run capacitors are connected to the start winding. Once again, the motor in the CSCR system reaches operating speed in about one-third of a second. And once again, the start capacitor is removed from the circuit, just as in the CSIR motor. In this case, however, the run capacitor and the start winding remain in the circuit, and the motor runs using both windings.



The result is that motors in CSCR systems are slightly more efficient, tend to have slightly higher starting torque, and tend to run slightly smoother than motors in CSIR systems. In smaller horsepower ratings (1 hp or below), the differences are usually not enough to be significant.

In larger ratings, the advantages of the run capacitor become more significant, and all Franklin single-phase 3-wire motors 1½ Hp and above are CSCR systems. That is, their control boxes all have one or more start and run capacitors. Since the run winding remains in the circuit of a CSCR motor after starting, there will always be current in the red (start winding) lead. Values can be found on page 13 of Franklin’s Application-Installation-Maintenance (AIM) Manual, August 2000 edition.

For 1 hp and below, the standard configuration of Franklin single-phase 3-wire motor systems is CSIR. That is, there is no run capacitor in the control box. However, in some cases, there may be a need to convert these installations to a CSCR configuration. Long-running applications such as fountains and aerators are the most common examples. Since many of these installations run continuously, every percentage point of efficiency may be important.

These systems can easily be converted into a CSCR configuration using Franklin’s CRC Box, or “Capacitor Run Control” Box. The CRC Box comes in the familiar QD Box configuration, so reconfiguration becomes a simple matter of removing the standard QD lid and replacing it with the CRC lid. The CRC Box is available in 230V ratings, ½ hp, ¾ hp and 1 hp.



In case you’re wondering where Franklin 2-wire motors fit in, they too are induction-run motors, and have both a start and a run winding. However, these motors do not use capacitors, and therefore have no need for a control box. Instead, there is a switch inside the motor (the BIAC switch) that removes the start winding from the circuit on start-up, just like the 3-wire capacitor-start, induction-run motor.

The bottom line is that, although there are differences, each of these single-phase motors is more alike than different. If you want to know more about the CRC Box or have other installation questions, contact our Submersible Service Hotline. Our Headquarters Service Engineers are available by telephone at 800.348.2420, or by e-mail at hotline@fele.com. You may also visit our web site at www.franklin-electric.com to view our online AIM manual and other product and service information.
 

Ballvalve

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Those 1-1.5 boxes are just a big can with only a start cap and relay in them. I always use CSCR on anything 1.5HP or larger. The run cap is basically for power factor correction. It reduces the amps and energy consumption a little and makes the motor run cooler.

Actually those big boxes have a run capacitor also, and the relay is electronic now, similiar to the one in the QD box. You also get the old reset button, which is the canary in the coal mine for trouble. Quite a bargain for $89 delivered. One advantage is the terminal block, top quality clamping wire inserts, and big enough for large wire sizes - perhaps eliminating a breaker box in the well area. It's quite a squeeze in the qd box. Hell, I fit a start relay and a hour meter in one of the boxes with room to spare.

I notice an interesting point about start capacitors. They can be built for 5,000 to 60,000 starts, but unless you are ordering a few thousand, no way to know the quality of build. Seems like 10 years is considered time to replace any start cap by the makers. Also, Franklin seems to have put the $ screws on us: their start cap is 105-126 MFD, and retail sells for $25+ . Can't find that rating on the market, and probably the exact length, the standard is 108-130, and they cost $9 - even if from BMI USA which is the cap Mfg. in Franklins boxes. Judging from my wells, it must be the 100,000 start capacitor.

Wouldn't it be great to have a start counter and hour meter in every control box? And the specs to say when to service? We would all have a lot less to argue about here. Still back in the caveman age with private wells. "Granpa's well lasted 60 years and the damn thing started 100 times a day when he ran his still!" "My neighbors friends brothers well went 40 years, and no one even knew where it was exactly!"

Valveman, someone, set up an average house with an average family well on a CSV and record starts, run time and KW used. After 6 months switch that 3 way valve over to the 80 gallon PT system, 30-50 and report back with a chart.
 

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Valveman, someone, set up an average house with an average family well on a CSV and record starts, run time and KW used. After 6 months switch that 3 way valve over to the 80 gallon PT system, 30-50 and report back with a chart.

I did that several times 20+ years ago. Tested with a 20 gallon size tank the CSV system cycled 20% to 80% less, depending on how the water was being used. ON a normal house use only the CSV increased the average electric bill from 5 to 7 bucks a month. On systems with a lot of irrigation, the CSV system used the same or even slightly less electricity than when cycling with the 80 gallon tank. The big difference was in pump life where the CSV increased the life of the pump by 200% to 400% on heavily used systems like with irrigation and heat pumps.
 

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Wouldn't it be great to have a start counter and hour meter in every control box? And the specs to say when to service? We would all have a lot less to argue about here.
That could be built into the pressure switch with the WiFi connection. When the thermostat realizes you are away and it is not time for the softener to regen or the sprinklers to run, it could shut down the pump and email/message you that you might have a burst hose or other leak.
 

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That could be built into the pressure switch with the WiFi connection. When the thermostat realizes you are away and it is not time for the softener to regen or the sprinklers to run, it could shut down the pump and email/message you that you might have a burst hose or other leak.

They have irrigation controllers that do that. You just have to use a flow meter so they know what is going on.
 

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I have seen some of the old start counters and hour meters used around here and everyone quite using them because they wouldn't last as long as the pump but they could've recorded the starting cap if they did maintenance.
 

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Here goes one that didn't make it long enough on a pump that was filling a big storage tank, there was an hour meter as well and quit working.
 

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PumpMd

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You talking about this oneo_O
 

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PumpMd

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You have to bend the bar to get them to fit right in a standard control box because the 108-130 are smaller around. You have to do the same thing with a Dayton start cap.
 

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PumpMd

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Actually those big boxes have a run capacitor also, and the relay is electronic now, similiar to the one in the QD box. You also get the old reset button, which is the canary in the coal mine for trouble. Quite a bargain for $89 delivered. One advantage is the terminal block, top quality clamping wire inserts, and big enough for large wire sizes - perhaps eliminating a breaker box in the well area. It's quite a squeeze in the qd box. Hell, I fit a start relay and a hour meter in one of the boxes with room to spare.

I notice an interesting point about start capacitors. They can be built for 5,000 to 60,000 starts, but unless you are ordering a few thousand, no way to know the quality of build. Seems like 10 years is considered time to replace any start cap by the makers. Also, Franklin seems to have put the $ screws on us: their start cap is 105-126 MFD, and retail sells for $25+ . Can't find that rating on the market, and probably the exact length, the standard is 108-130, and they cost $9 - even if from BMI USA which is the cap Mfg. in Franklins boxes. Judging from my wells, it must be the 100,000 start capacitor.

Wouldn't it be great to have a start counter and hour meter in every control box? And the specs to say when to service? We would all have a lot less to argue about here. Still back in the caveman age with private wells. "Granpa's well lasted 60 years and the damn thing started 100 times a day when he ran his still!" "My neighbors friends brothers well went 40 years, and no one even knew where it was exactly!"

Valveman, someone, set up an average house with an average family well on a CSV and record starts, run time and KW used. After 6 months switch that 3 way valve over to the 80 gallon PT system, 30-50 and report back with a chart.


This 1998 BMI 59-71 uf 220vac came from a farm on a WM6 tank and it was still working. I got him back in water over the weekend by using a point file(which I can post a brand spanking New light duty pressure switch, to show how there is no coating on the contact points where they make contact, just the nice shiny Alloy) and the pressure switch was an old low cut out switch that still had the flat head screws. I showed up to the job to take care of his waterlogged tank after 10yrs of use. The control box was dated 1998 and he wasn't sure if the pump got changed when the control box was installed. Let's just say he was cycling/starting 70times a day on his farm with the small tank, 70x365= 25,550
25,550x18yrs= 459,900. How many cycles/starts can it last with a good Quality tank that can hold it's Precharge?
 

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Valveman

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25,550x18yrs= 459,900. How many cycles/starts can it last with a good Quality tank that can hold it's Precharge?

No question that if you could find such a thing as a "good quality tank that can hold a pre-charge", the pump would last longer, because that would reduce the number of cycles. But it would last even longer still if the overall cycles were reduced to say 100,000 instead of a half a million.
 

PumpMd

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I get to see them from the old maintenance free WellXtrol tanks and RL tanks these days. I was talking about the starting cap on how many cycles/starts they can take from normal cycling to get a close number on how many cycles/starts they can last, the number is even higher than 500,000 on a starting cap from what I've seen in the field.
 

Ballvalve

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I get to see them from the old maintenance free WellXtrol tanks and RL tanks these days. I was talking about the starting cap on how many cycles/starts they can take from normal cycling to get a close number on how many cycles/starts they can last, the number is even higher than 500,000 on a starting cap from what I've seen in the field.

Looks like BMI and US made means something. And let's hope "Tonia" built the caps on our wells! 500m starts on a cap seems impossible.
 

PumpMd

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I see the same thing out of the old Philips starting caps and I can see how the Dayton starting caps hold up out in the field when I come across them since they are made in China.
 

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PumpMd

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Here is a 1.5hp BMI starting cap still being used from 1998. It's not using a small tank on a farm well though either.
 

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