Canister/tower flush valve vs Flapper. Which is better?

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Suceress

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I was reading discussion about which toilets are recommended for people to get over on another forum & someone mentioned getting a Drake II with the new canister/tower flush valve. I didn't even knew such a thing existed so I started looking it up but mostly seem to find Kohler ones.
I saw that the Aquia comes with a canister flush, so it made me wonder which models can have the canister flush & how it compares to the original mechanism.

It looks rather bulky and I'm sure there are things that can go wrong with it (I've seen complaints about the Kohler version) but I also wonder if the ones for Toto have problems less often than a flapper. I've had problems of the flapper not aligning properly when it lowered, I replaced that flapper and didn't have any more problems.

1. Does anyone have much experience with the canister style flush valves?
2. How do they perform vs regular flappers & do they require more frequent maintenance/replacement?
3. Do they have problems with hard water?
4. Are there any designed to work in the Toto Drake or Toto Entrada (both have the same trap seal size)?
 

Treeman

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I see that you are participating in the Drake II thread about this topic. I installed a new regular Drake 1.6 elongated in my workplace shop about 1 year ago. Mine came with the tower and I, too, was concerned because I was an old school flapper guy. Our water is very hard (iron too) and I was having some issues with the old flapper toilet. I decided to give the tower a go to see how it would handle our water. When I inquired about tower performance back then, one response suggested it might actually handle the hard water better.

One year later and the tower is performing excellent. It will take a few more years to see how it holds up.

On another note - choosing a new toilet based on internet research is difficult. I went back/forth between a Drake 1.6 gal. and Drake II 1.28 gal. (flush action vs. gallons used), wondering which might be better for hard water and to get clean flushes (no skid marks). Even the highly regarded TOTO's get some mixed reviews. This tells me that everyone's situation is different and results vary. I get more skid marks with the Drake, but the Drake II gets mixed reviews for this also. So, I have no proof that in my situation, the II might be better. Too bad we can't test them before choosing. One thing for sure - clogging is a thing of the past.
 
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Suceress

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Thanks for your input, Treeman. I have to say the Drake performs better than any toilet I've ever had in the past. None of the other toilets ever flushed as well. The only times the Drake ever clogged was because of issues with the plumbing and not the toilet itself. Our pipes are not vented nor are they properly sloped yet we've only had a few clogs since 2008. Our previous toilets clogged almost every day if not more. I think I've only had to replace my flapper once or twice since 2008. Now that I know which canister flush valve is used in the Drake, I may consider getting one to see how it works the next time I need to replace the flapper. I'm hoping more people will weigh in on this.
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, how long the rubber components last in your toilet varies, sometimes radically, based on your water content. On a well, they will tend to last longer because they generally don't have any added chemicals. Mine last about 3-4 years and need to be replaced. Depending on how wet the season is, our city water may come from spring fed ponds, but if it's drier, they augment it with water from the river that then needs a lot more treatment and you notice!
 

Suceress

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Thanks again, jadnashua. I've got filthy well water. It has a lot of iron sediment. The inside of my Drake's tank is dark and ugly. At one point some kind of crud got in to the water supply for the toilet because there was some nasty gunk inside the fill valve. I've had to take the it apart a few times to clean it.

I have no idea what some of that crud was. It's never come out of the faucets even with the aerators removed. Well, the black stuff has come out of the faucets before, but not what looked like chunks of plastic. If the power goes out or pump is shut off for any reason and it has to refill, the water comes out worse at first. I've uploaded a pic of what it looked like once. It doesn't usually come out quite that dark, but it still has a slight color to it- thus we use filtered pitchers & boil the water.

On the canister valve, I noticed that the rubber part looks rather flimsy/thin. I wonder if it is sturdier than it looks.
 

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Reach4

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I've got filthy well water. It has a lot of iron sediment. The inside of my Drake's tank is dark and ugly. At one point some kind of crud got in to the water supply for the toilet because there was some nasty gunk inside the fill valve. I've had to take the it apart a few times to clean it.
Looking at this description and your tap water picture, I would think you would be looking at water treatment solutions.
 

Suceress

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As an aside, does anyone know if the Toto Entrada comes with the canister style now? The trap seal is the same size as the one on the Drake but I saw that they use different flappers & wonder why. I wonder if the flapper and/or canister for the Drake can be used in the Entrada.
 

Jadnashua

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Some of the variation in guts on the Toto toilets depends on where they are actually made. While they have a big factory in Georgia, depending on the model, where it's being shipped, and the supply and demand, the thing may actually be made in any one of many places overseas. That can have the thing show up with a variety of internals. There's no way to guarantee on made in the USA that I'm aware of. The good thing is that their quality control is excellent, and the end result is that it should work fine, regardless of where it actually came from.
 

Suceress

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Ahh. Ok. So it won't always be the same internals. I can see that. Thanks!
 

moar

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Check this out. https://www.watermgt.com/Determing design flow of toilet.pdf

The tank holds a ton more water than what's needed for flush on newer toilets. The water is basically stacked up higher to give it pressure. Pushing 1" of water starting from the top and shutting it off early gives it more push than filling it up to 1" from bottom and letting it drain completely. There are quite a few different types of flappers as you can see in the paper. I wish I'd known that earlier. I replaced an older 3.5 GPF toilet, because it was regularly needing two flushes. After reading that paper, I realized I've put in a wrong flapper when I changed it a few years ago. The rubber between the tank and the toilet was turning into a goo. Since it didn't flush that well anyways, I decided to just replace the whole thing than bothering to fix it.

The flapper is part of the flush volume calibration. If you just buy something off the shelf and it turns out to be wrong, then you accidentally turn an older one into a low flush that doesn't work good, or you turn modern one into a water hog. With the canister, the rubber part is just a seal not related to calibration and its less likely that a wrong part will get put in. So the government probably prefers it to prevent routine maintenance from accidentally destroying the water usage performance.
 
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