Can I Rework My Well Pump/pressure Tank System Now That I Don't Need It For House Water?

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williaty

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When we bought this house, it had a single well, pump, and pressure tank serving both the geothermal HVAC and the domestic water. The county laid water mains just before we moved in 3 years ago and we finally hooked up to city water this week. When doing research on the geothermal system, I learned that pumping the water up to 70psi, storing it in the tank, and then running it through the GSHP is really killing most of the supposed efficiency benefits of the GSHP. Now that the domestic water no longer needs to be supplied from the well, I'd like to optimize the well setup for the GSHP in order to improve the efficiency and stop spending so much money on the electric to pump the water. Ideally, I'd love to have the GSHP turn the well pump on/off as necessary and eliminate the pressure tank, if this is even possible.

To make this more complicated, the well and house were built before there was any sort of code enforcement in the county. There's no record of this well's construction at the county office or in the small amount of paperwork on the house that we were given. I have no idea how deep it's drilled, what the water level is, how deep the pump is set, or even what kind of pump is in there.

So, in order to re-design the system to make it as efficient as possible for the GSHP, what questions do I need to find answers to? I'm sure the unknowns about the well are important but what else do I need to find out in order to have enough information to pick the best solution?

Thanks!
 

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Unless you have a problem with the quality of the well water, you should never have connected to the city line. At least do not disable the pump so it cannot supply the house. When SHTF you are going to want to be in control of your water supply. I would never let any city or anyone else control the water supply to my house. Letting the government control the water to your house is one of the best ways to let them have complete control over you.

Anyway, your pump is already supplying the heat pump, so you know it will do that much flow. Just turn the pressure switch down to 20/40, adjust the air charge in your tank to 18, and let the pump cycle on/off to supply the heat pump. That way the pump is always running at its most efficient point, or it is off. Now you may cycle the pump to death in short order, but that is the lowest pumping cost for the geo you can get.

If you want to get it as efficient as possible, you will need to know the GPM the heat pump demands, and the depth to the pumping level in the well. Then you can size a pump exactly to fit the heat pump at the lowest pressure. Then you could wire the well pump to the heat pump and not need a pressure tank or any other controls. But if your pump puts out the smallest amount more than the heat pump uses, the pressure will keep climbing. So you either need to let it cycle on and off as needed, or use a Cycle Stop Valve to vary the flow from the well pump to match the heat pump.
 

williaty

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Unless you have a problem with the quality of the well water, you should never have connected to the city line. At least do not disable the pump so it cannot supply the house. When SHTF you are going to want to be in control of your water supply. I would never let any city or anyone else control the water supply to my house. Letting the government control the water to your house is one of the best ways to let them have complete control over you.
Without electric from a giant corporation, I can't get water out of the well. I trust the local government a heck of a lot more than I trust any corporation. In fact, I trust the local special district that provides my water a HECK of a lot more when it comes to infrastructure maintenance than I do AEP, since AEP is letting everything fall apart because they won't spend a dime on maintenance. Just how far into SHTF do you think you'll be able to supply 15A at 240V to that well pump anyway? Sure, I have ways to make electricity long after the grid goes down, but making the amount of power that the well pump to start and the total amount of energy it uses to run is a different kettle of fish all together. How long do you think you can continue to order repair parts for the whole system, half of which are made overseas?

Now, that being said, one of the other things I'll be looking into along with this is what my options are for a manually operated pump that I can drop down the well if it ever did look like utility water was never coming back.

The city water also costs us a heck of a lot less per month than the well water did by the time you factor in electricity, the amortized cost of the water softener and iron/sulfur filter, salt, and PotPerm required to get the well water out of the ground and make it usable (not drinkable, just usable).

Anyway, your pump is already supplying the heat pump, so you know it will do that much flow. Just turn the pressure switch down to 20/40, adjust the air charge in your tank to 18, and let the pump cycle on/off to supply the heat pump. That way the pump is always running at its most efficient point, or it is off. Now you may cycle the pump to death in short order, but that is the lowest pumping cost for the geo you can get.
Is adjusting the pressure switch and tank pressure downwards going to make the pump cycle any more than it already did when it was supplying the GSHP plus domestic water? Looking at the charts, it looks like the pressure tank will have a higher available draw down volume at a lower pressure, so the pump should cycle even less often, right?

If I drop the pressure switch setting, can I install a Cycle Stop Valve above ground to prevent the pump from cycling while the GSHP runs? That might be a decent interim solution for me that I could enact right now for less money than paying an expert to come out, find out exactly where the water level and pump level is, and switch the system over to a no-tank setup.
 

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Without electric from a giant corporation, I can't get water out of the well. I trust the local government a heck of a lot more than I trust any corporation. In fact, I trust the local special district that provides my water a HECK of a lot more when it comes to infrastructure maintenance than I do AEP, since AEP is letting everything fall apart because they won't spend a dime on maintenance. Just how far into SHTF do you think you'll be able to supply 15A at 240V to that well pump anyway? Sure, I have ways to make electricity long after the grid goes down, but making the amount of power that the well pump to start and the total amount of energy it uses to run is a different kettle of fish all together. How long do you think you can continue to order repair parts for the whole system, half of which are made overseas?

Now, that being said, one of the other things I'll be looking into along with this is what my options are for a manually operated pump that I can drop down the well if it ever did look like utility water was never coming back.

The city water also costs us a heck of a lot less per month than the well water did by the time you factor in electricity, the amortized cost of the water softener and iron/sulfur filter, salt, and PotPerm required to get the well water out of the ground and make it usable (not drinkable, just usable).


Is adjusting the pressure switch and tank pressure downwards going to make the pump cycle any more than it already did when it was supplying the GSHP plus domestic water? Looking at the charts, it looks like the pressure tank will have a higher available draw down volume at a lower pressure, so the pump should cycle even less often, right?

If I drop the pressure switch setting, can I install a Cycle Stop Valve above ground to prevent the pump from cycling while the GSHP runs? That might be a decent interim solution for me that I could enact right now for less money than paying an expert to come out, find out exactly where the water level and pump level is, and switch the system over to a no-tank setup.

I can see hooking up to the city if you have a water quality issue. I am fortunate. My well water is even more pure than the city supply and I live in an area that doesn't have everything contaminated by over population, well at least not yet. I don't use a filter of any kind. But there is no way you can pay 7ish dollars a thousand and be less money than water from a well. If you add up all the cost of the well and the electric used, I can pump water for a couple of pennies per thousand over the life of the well and pump, which is a fraction of the price of city water.

I don't trust the power corporations, but I especially do not trust any federal, state, or even local government to provide anything for me. Unless you have better luck than me, the government officials I deal with have no clue what they are doing. I will provide for myself. When I run out of parts and generators, I will use a bucket and a rope like my ancestors did.

Adjusting the pressure down to 20/40 will make the tank hold more water, but it also makes the pump produce more GPM, so the cycling will be about the same. You just get more GPM per KW at the lower pressure. And yes you can use a CSV set at 30 PSI or so to keep the pump from cycling itself to death. The pumping cost will be a little higher than when letting the pump cycle. But that cost is more than offset by making the pump system last longer. I hear from people everyday who say it doesn't matter how much energy a heat pump is saving if cycling causes them to have to replace their pump every 18 to 36 months or so.

Reducing the size of the pump to exactly match the heat pump demand is the best way to save energy. Then if it is not exact, or if you have multiple zones of different flow rates, a CSV can vary the pump flow to match the different zones.
 

Reach4

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Now, that being said, one of the other things I'll be looking into along with this is what my options are for a manually operated pump that I can drop down the well if it ever did look like utility water was never coming back.
Include Simple Pump in your consideration.
 

williaty

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Adjusting the pressure down to 20/40 will make the tank hold more water, but it also makes the pump produce more GPM, so the cycling will be about the same. You just get more GPM per KW at the lower pressure. And yes you can use a CSV set at 30 PSI or so to keep the pump from cycling itself to death. The pumping cost will be a little higher than when letting the pump cycle. But that cost is more than offset by making the pump system last longer. I hear from people everyday who say it doesn't matter how much energy a heat pump is saving if cycling causes them to have to replace their pump every 18 to 36 months or so.
Well, the current pump was installed at some unknown time we bought the place and has been running for the 3+ years we've been here, including the time just before we moved in when the outflow solenoid valve on the GSHP failed and the well pump cycled every 5 minutes for a week or so. I have no idea what's down in the hole, but it's obviously a tough little bugger!

1) Do you have a link for how to install the CSV in my basement (pipe from well enters foundation wall well below grade so the only reasonable place to put the CSV is in the house).

2) Is there a good reference anywhere to how to adjust the pressure switch setting and air pressure in the pressure tank?
 

Reach4

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2) Is there a good reference anywhere to how to adjust the pressure switch setting and air pressure in the pressure tank?

To raise or lower the cut-in and cut-out settings while keeping the
differential between those two settings constant, adjust the range
nut. The range nut is the 3/8-inch nut that adjusts the larger of
the two springs in Models FSG, FYG, FRG, and Type G Pumptrol
switches.
Turn the range nut clockwise to increase the cut-in pressure and
counter-clockwise to lower the cut-in pressure. Three and a half
revolutions of the range nut will change both the cut-in and
cut-out settings by approximately 10 psi.

To set the precharge, turn off the pump and release water to let the pressure drop to near zero. If you have a submersible pump, set the air pressure to 2 PSI below the cut-in pressure for the switch.

If you ever replace that pump, a smaller pump will probably be appropriate. You should be looking to use a 1/2 HP pump probably.
 

Valveman

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Well who needs a manual when you have Reach right here. :)

But I would argue about switching to a 1/2HP pump until you know the demand of the heat pump and the depth to water.

1 well pump for heat pump supply.jpg
 

Reach4

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But I would argue about switching to a 1/2HP pump until you know the demand of the heat pump and the depth to water.
And I would not argue with that.

If you measure the current draw on one of your pump power wires from the breaker or pressure switch, you can make a reasonable guess as to how many HP the current motor is.
 

williaty

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So I put the CSV inline just before the pressure tank and pressure switch. It functions basically the same as an air pressure regulator in an pneumatic system. Assuming that I set the pressure switch to 20/40psi and use a CSV set to 30psi with the GSHP's flow regulartor limiting it to 3gpm, I have the following question. What is the pressure in the system between the well pump and the CSV when the pump is trying to output god knows what gpm but the CSV is acting to restrict the flow to the 3gpm the GSHP is going to use?

I'm used to pumps that would send the system pressure upwards until something broke in that scenario. Obviously, well pumps must operate differently in order for the CSV to be possible. However, I am concerned about increasing the pressure in 30-year-old plastic pipe from the well pump to the CSV.
 

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What is the pressure in the system between the well pump and the CSV when the pump is trying to output god knows what gpm but the CSV is acting to restrict the flow to the 3gpm the GSHP is going to use?

That depends entirely on the pump. But if you set the CSV at 30 PSI, the inlet to the CSV should not be more than 155 PSI, because that is all the differential pressure the CSV can handle. But unless your pump was way over-sized, I would guess you would see from 90-120 PSI on the incoming line. Most pipes are rated for more than that, and there will not be a problem. But if you have some old 100# poly or something coming into the house, the pipe would be the problem, not the CSV.
 
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