Can I reuse unused ceiling fan wire

[hotchuckwagon]

I recently removed a ceiling fan. Coming into the ceiling box is 12/3 wire. The fan (black) and light (red) were powered with individual wall switches.

I will be replacing the ceiling fan with a regular light with no ceiling fan. I also want to run line for 4 recessed lights and am exploring options. i am assuming that I would be able to use one of the wires (let's say red) to power the new light and extend to the new recessed lights. In that scenario, I would cap the black wire for a future potential fan and just have a "dead" switch.

Is it an option to run the recessed lights off the black wire previously used to power the fan. Again, there is a separate switch.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Reach4]

Yes.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[hotchuckwagon]

Yes.

Thanks Reach. If I go the option of using the extra black wire to extend the circuit for the recessed lights, is there any special consideration for the neutral? Would I just join all 3 neutrals together?

Also, there is currently no ground wire in the ceiling box. Would I just tie the ground wire going to the new recessed lights to the ground of the new light in the box and attach both to metal in the box?

Thanks

 

[Reach4]

Splices would be done in electrical boxes. Usually the splicing would be done with wire nuts. Yes, you would join neutrals to neutrals and grounds to grounds.

 

[hotchuckwagon]

Splices would be done in electrical boxes. Usually the splicing would be done with wire nuts. Yes, you would join neutrals to neutrals and grounds to grounds.

I all seems so simple to essentially use that black wire normally used for the fan to extend the circuit. That way I would have separate switches for both the new light and the run of recessed lights. I could use a dimmer on one or the other and get some different moods for the little lady. No fan to cool her down though. Just didn't want to do something stupid, thinking that the fan "hot" might be exclusive for the fan, causing code issues.

Thanks much

 

[Kreemoweet]

Well wait a minute. Just because there is no ground wire in the fan box, doesn't mean there's no ground. It could be grounded via
the use of metal conduit or cable. In that case, the new wiring and fixtures, which will certainly have ground wires, just need to be
connected to the old metal box. If there really does not exist a grounding means, then 1) you are generally not allowed to extend an
ungrounded circuit without special permission from your local jusrisdiction, and 2) you are prohibited from installing any light fixtures with exposed metal/conducting parts (which would include all recessed light fixtures I've ever seen). In some circumstances, you can extend a nearby
equipment ground conducter (if any such exist) to serve as the grounding for your new light fixtures.

 

[hotchuckwagon]

Now I'm wondering if this box is even grounded at all. It is a plastic box. Coming into it is black non-metallic cable that goes back to the switches. It is carrying 2 hots and a neutral. The house was built in the mid-80's. I assume this was original wiring but don't know that for sure.

The switch controlling the red wire also is a 3-way switch (tied to another across the room) that controls a couple outlets (lamps). Could this be a factor in why no ground wire is going into my ceiling box?

Thanks

 

[hotchuckwagon]

Now I'm wondering if this box is even grounded at all. It is a plastic box. Coming into it is black non-metallic cable that goes back to the switches. It is carrying 2 hots and a neutral. The house was built in the mid-80's. I assume this was original wiring but don't know that for sure.

The switch controlling the red wire also is a 3-way switch (tied to another across the room) that controls a couple outlets (lamps). Could this be a factor in why no ground wire is going into my ceiling box?

Thanks

The cable coming into my ceiling box in nm-b. No ground.

 

[Jadnashua]

I thought by the 80's, all residential wiring required the ground...it was fairly common to not run it prior to that, or rely on the BX's outer shield to provide it (it didn't work over time as it corroded). It might be in the cable, but was just cut back. With a plastic box, obviously, you can't ground it, but most fixtures still had a ground point, as do most current switches and receptacles. You can make a non-grounded circuit safer by installing a GFCI to protect things, but it's not the same as actually having a ground.

When hooking up 3-way switches, you need three wires running between the switches, and that often ends up including one cable with a red in it. But, that third wire is also often used as a switched lead. Depending on where it is, it may have different functions, so you can't just go by the color...you need to trace the circuit.

 

[hotchuckwagon]

In looking at the work, this could have been some work of the prior owner.

The switch powering the red hot in the ceiling is as follows. Unless otherwise noted, all neutrals and grounds in box are bundled together. This switch is a 3-way that controls an outlet as well as the ceiling light.

Source power is attached to brass on the bottom. As mentioned above, the ceiling light hot is attached to this switch. Red and black travelers are attached to top half of switch and carry across the room to another switch. No ground in this cable. Once it gets over to the other switch, the travelers are attached to the top of the switch. On the bottom of this switch is a hot that goes to an outlet. The ground for the cable going to the outlet is bundled with the 2 neutrals in the box.

I have not seen ground and neutrals tied together before. Is this some way that provides a ground all the way back to other switch and up to ceiling. When a receptacle tester is plugged into the outlet, it shows as wired properly. If I loosen that ground wire, the tester shows open ground.

I know a picture would be more clear but I am new to forum and am just learning. I also realize my post title has drifted to a new topic. Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Jadnashua]

Ground and neutral are NOT allowed to be connected as you depict. They are only bonded together in a few, specified places: at your service entrance panel, and it is allowed in an electrical stove or dryer when there's no ground in the box supplying it...nowhere else that I'm aware of. Hot and neutral wires are current carrying conductors...ground should never be a current carrying conductor except as a fault to blow a fuse or trip a breaker. A house built in the 1980's should have been built with grounded cables.

 

[hotchuckwagon]

Is my situation (ground tied to neutral in switch box) similar in concept to a bootleg ground?

Thanks

 

[Jadnashua]

Is my situation (ground tied to neutral in switch box) similar in concept to a bootleg ground?

Thanks

IMHO (Note, I'm not a licensed electrician or inspector!), yes. Your receptacle tester will indicate 'ground good', but in reality, it doesn't meet the intent of the rules...yes, neutral and ground are connected, but it should only be done in one place. It could mess up a GFCI, depending on where it was in the circuit. Note, a GFCI will provide most of the human safety of having a real ground, but some devices want an actual one. It is to code to install a GFCI on an ungrounded receptacle and still use a grounded one, but it must be marked as GFCI Protected, no ground (or something similar - there's usually sticker in the box with the GFCI for this purpose).