Buried pressure tank question

[Richard D White]

The PO of my home had a well installed long before he built the house. The spin fiberglass pressure tank is buried next to the well head. He always had trouble with the switch freezing so when the house was built he ran a 1/4" line from a nipple on the pitless adapter into the crawlspace and put the guage and switch there. Problem is when it gets below zero the small line will still freeze up. Bottom line is that I waited until now when the ground is frozen to deal with it. I want to move the pressure tank under the house but I don't want to dig everything up right now. Can I just plug that 1/4" line off and put a Tee in the main line that comes in the house and install a new tank and switch? Will this set up effect my outside hydrants which then would be up stream of the new tank? Can I just leave the old tank in the ground hooked up without a switch?

 

[Valveman]

The old buried tank will cause problems. If nothing else the water on the backside of a broken bladder will get contaminated and then shot into the house. You don't have to dig up the entire tank, just cut and plug the water line that goes to the tank. Then yes you can put you pressure switch on a tee in the house close to the new pressure tank. Just don't use a check valve above ground and you can still use the hydrants that are on the line coming into the house.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Richard D White]

Thanks for the info. Realizing that the old tank will have to be disconnected at some point, right now it is still functioning properly. Any harm in leaving it until spring.

 

[Valveman]

As long as the tank is good you can leave it. But you will need to install an additional tank close to the pressure switch.

 

[Richard D White]

Awesome, thank you. I will likely have a well guy come at some point and pull the pump up and plug the nipple that goes to the 1/4" pressure line but I dont want to monkey with it in 0 degree weather now. For now I'll just leave everything hooked up and disconnect the old pressure switch to run the wiring to the new one.

 

[Valveman]

If you have the well guy come out you might consider letting him install a CSV125 in the well. I didn't mention it earlier because of the hydrants on the underground line and the buried tank. But if you are pulling it up anyway it would be easy to put the CSV125 in the well and then your hydrants on the underground line and everything else would be controlled by the CSV.

 

[Reach4]

He always had trouble with the switch freezing so when the house was built he ran a 1/4" line from a nipple on the pitless adapter into the crawlspace and put the guage and switch there. Problem is when it gets below zero the small line will still freeze up.

Clearly your 1/4 inch line was not buried deep enough.

Workaround idea: suppose you put in a drain valve in the 1/4 inch in the crawl space and limit the flow to 0.1 gpm. Then water travels through the 1/4 inch pipe continuously, avoiding freezing. Run the water up into a drain in the house.

The downside would be that there would be a pressure drop in the 1/4 inch pipe -- on the order of 1 psi for every 30 ft. http://www.pressure-drop.com/Online-Calculator/ Just an idea. Most of the time, the buried tank would be supplying the water. I don't know what its temperature would be.

Another thought: if the 1/4 inch line was almost deep enough, pile dirt or straw or leaves (held down somehow) above the path to increase the insulation. Those would be bad for the grass lawn.

 

[Richard D White]

Clearly your 1/4 inch line was not buried deep enough.

Workaround idea: suppose you put in a drain valve in the 1/4 inch in the crawl space and limit the flow to 0.1 gpm. Then water travels through the 1/4 inch pipe continuously, avoiding freezing. Run the water up into a drain in the house.

The downside would be that there would be a pressure drop in the 1/4 inch pipe -- on the order of 1 psi for every 30 ft. http://www.pressure-drop.com/Online-Calculator/ Just an idea. Most of the time, the buried tank would be supplying the water. I don't know what its temperature would be.

Another thought: if the 1/4 inch line was almost deep enough, pile dirt or straw or leaves (held down somehow) above the path to increase the insulation. Those would be bad for the grass lawn.

The freeze point is always at the nipple on pitless adapter. Usually only takes about 2 minutes with a hair dryer to thaw. The adapter has never froze. It's just a pain to un cap the well and do it. Plus the way it's set up the switch is a good 30' from the tank which cant be good.

 

[Reach4]

The freeze point is always at the nipple on pitless adapter. Usually only takes about 2 minutes with a hair dryer to thaw. The adapter has never froze. It's just a pain to un cap the well and do it. Plus the way it's set up the switch is a good 30' from the tank which cant be good.

How about straw bales stacked around the casing? And how about building an enclosure/box above and around the casing from EPS or XPS insulation. Those are not bothered by moisture. I think that if your pitless is nearly deep enough, that should let the heat from below keep the pitless area from freezing. That is a lot better insulation than bales. That would be my favorite. The idea would be like a stovepipe hat made of XPS, but square rather than round.

Another idea would be to bury a heater at the pitless.
Still another idea would be to dangle the shortest gutter heater cable available down the casing.

After viewing this Youtube video, I would attach the pieces with Gorilla Glue or Great Stuff.

 

[Richard D White]

I've got a strange well. I asked on another forum about it and was laughed off the board. I attached a file that explains it. So when the barometer drops it will blow ice cold air out. I actually built a dog house around it with a 2 feett of rock wool on all sides and slid a duct taped sealed tube of bubble wrap down the casing. It helped and gained me 10 degrees but it still freezes when its below zero. I also am thinking that there is no water exchange in the tube so after a few days of below zero temps it just finally freezes up. The buried set up worked well for the PO as he was never there in the winter so wasnt aware of any problems. Since I have no desire to dig frozen ground I'm just going to put a new tank under the house. Plus it seems that the damn thing never freezes when I'm home. As soon a s in out of the house the wife calls with no water which is not good in a house full of girls wanting a bath!

 

[Reach4]

I wonder if a sealed well cap, such as might be used with an artesian well, might slow the air flow enough to stop the high-velocity cold air sucking.

 

[Valveman]

I have seen wells that breath both ways. Usually if they breath out, the warmth of the earth keeps things from freezing. If it breathed in all the time the below zero temp sucking down the well could cause a problem. Maybe some electric heat tapes would help?

 

[Reach4]

I have seen wells that breath both ways. Usually if they breath out, the warmth of the earth keeps things from freezing.

The coldest weather often comes in with a high.

Since the pressure changes in PSI are not all that much, I wonder if taping a plastic garbage bag etc over the well cap and conduit would stop the cold wind. Attention would be needed to make a seal at the conduit, but you could work that out. Maybe a wad of putty or caulking could make that seal. I think we would be talking about less than 1 psi.

Would it be necessary to block the conduit separately? Not sure.

 

[Richard D White]

Got the new tank in and plumbed. Kind of a loop design as it's what I had to work with and I didn't want to redesign the entire plumbing routing. Thanks for all the help.

 

[Reach4]

That works, but it seems to be missing a drain valve. The drain valve is good to let you drain sediment that can accumulate. You seem to have a plug in the tank tee that you could replace with a drain valve.

I presume there is a shut-off valve out of the picture on the way to the house plumbing.

 

[Richard D White]

That works, but it seems to be missing a drain valve. The drain valve is good to let you drain sediment that can accumulate. You seem to have a plug in the tank tee that you could replace with a drain valve.

Yes there is a house shut off and another drain just out of picture. I failed to remember to get a drain spigot when I was in town so I just plugged it for now. I actually have a frost free that is on the lower end of my property which I have found is the best way to drain the entire system. It's about 15' below the house level.

I presume there is a shut-off valve out of the picture on the way to the house plumbing.

 

[Richard D White]

That works, but it seems to be missing a drain valve. The drain valve is good to let you drain sediment that can accumulate. You seem to have a plug in the tank tee that you could replace with a drain valve.

I presume there is a shut-off valve out of the picture on the way to the house plumbing.

Yes there is a shut off to the house. I just forgot to get a spigot so I plugged it for now.

 

[Richard D White]

Appreciate everyone's help. Everything is installed and working. Hopefully this solves my freezing problem. I have yet to ever have a pipe freeze under the house. Just have to wait until spring to pull the old tank out of the ground. It is still functional so it's kind of nice to have double capacity before the well kicks in. The top of the buried tank and air valve is accessible. And it is the type of tank that the bladder is replaceable. I suppose I could just check it every 6 months or so and leave it alone as long as its good.

 

[Valveman]

Remove the old tank as soon as possible. Sure the added tank gives longer cycles, which is the best you can do when you don't have a CSV, but the water on the backside of the diaphragm will get contaminated. It may not get shot into the house unless there is a power outage. When the power goes off and that tank empties it will dump some nasty stuff into the house.

 

[Richard D White]

Remove the old tank as soon as possible. Sure the added tank gives longer cycles, which is the best you can do when you don't have a CSV, but the water on the backside of the diaphragm will get contaminated. It may not get shot into the house unless there is a power outage. When the power goes off and that tank empties it will dump some nasty stuff into the house.

Just out of curiosity. Since the old tank has a removable bladder. Could I pull the bladder, reseal the top and just use it as additional storage?