Brine doesn't suck from tank

[ChrisBeall]

'no brand' softener, circa 1979. Control valve appears to be a Fleck, timer only, and not one of the currently listed models. Water was not being softened. Over several days observation, the brine tank had increasing amounts of water in it. I did a manual regeneration and observed that during the 'Brine and Rinse' phase, water was slowly flowing INTO the brine tank. It eventually dumped about a quart through the overflow hose (so apparently the safety shutoff float valve wasn't effective).

Given the age of the unit, I'm looking for a new one. Is there anything easy that I could try to perhaps get this one working again briefly?

 

[Reach4]

Does it look like one of these? http://www.softenerparts.com/Fleck_Repair_Parts_s/4.htm If so, download a manual. If not, post a photo of the controller.

The brine gets drawn by a venturi in something called the injector. I would think cleaning that could be productive.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ChrisBeall]

My unit doesn't exactly match any of those shown, but it is close enough that I was able to find the injector on mine. I've attached photos, numbered with post-it notes. #1 and #5 show the valve from front and back. #3 is the injector assembly. #7 shows what it looked like when the cap was removed and #8 shows the nozzle, throat, and stainless filter after a bit of cleaning.

The nozzle was obstructed with black gunk. The throat, as you can see, was broken in half (and yes it was that way before I removed it). The filter was covered with iron oxide. I cleaned the filter, nozzle and throat and swabbed out the various orifices in the injector body. The injector nozzle appears to have a white marking on the outer end (hard to be sure since the plastic is white too), thus a #1 size, appropriate to my unit, which has a resin tank about 7.5" diameter and 38" high.

It's Sunday and I doubt no local supply house has parts for this, so I used Devcon Plastic Weld epoxy to glue the injector throat back together, then VERY carefully reinstalled it and the other parts. I ran it quickly thorough a regeneration (TOO quickly to really do anything useful) and verified that nothing obviously bad happened.

I have measured the water level in the brine tank and will recheck it tomorrow after an overnight regeneration, with fingers crossed.

I will report results.

Reach4, thanks for the pointer to a manual that was closer to my unit than others I had found, and for suggesting the injector as a likely source of the problem.

 

[Bannerman]

Chris,

As your location is not yet showing, are you located in Canada? Your valve appears virtually identical to mine although mine is a meter initiated version as opposed to timer initiated.

I had first thought my valve and control was a discontinued Fleck model but in talking to Fleck product support, I learned that my valve was built by WaterGroup for the Canadian market. My valve's model number is 3650 while the timer initiated version is a model 3600. I'm told those valves were produced until 1997 which is around the time I purchased my softener.

Although the valves are proprietary to WaterGroup, they utilize various Fleck 5600 parts including seals, spacers, piston cap and meter assembly. Because the piston is also from a Fleck 5600, as the piston linkage utilizes a different connection method, the cam yoke at the top of the 5600 piston rod must be first removed. That's a simple modification as the retaining pin can be easily driven out.

Unfortunately, I was advised that the brine valve is unique to the 3600/3650 models and is no longer offered so locating replacement brine valve parts will be unlikely. Since my brine valve continues to function properly for now, I have not attempted to locate replacement parts or a suitable complete alternate replacement brine valve assembly.

 

[ChrisBeall]

Bannerman,

I'm in New York, about 6 hours drive to the border. My unit was on rental when I bought my home; I continued to rent until the operator decided to retire, at which time he (it was a one-man show) rebuilt the piston valve (and perhaps some other parts) and sold me the system. That was about 7 years ago and it's worked rather well since. But it's now about 35 years old, so I'm looking for a replacement (and I don't know how long my injector fix will hold up...). I looked at the WaterGroup website and was impressed with the emphasis on design, adding features that an installer or owner will like to proven basic technology. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Bannerman]

As you're in NY, perhaps I was misinformed regarding the valve being available for only the Canadian market.

As I haven't needed to replace my injector, I don't know for certain if the Fleck 5600 injector is an appropriate replacement but I suspect it is. Cleaning the injector screen and the injector itself should be performed on a periodic but regular basis, probably every few years depending on the cleanliness of the salt used. The brine tank is a good indicator if permitted to periodically run low of salt as debris can then be observed.

With regards to a new softener, it's best to choose Fleck, Clack or Autotrol as the control valve brands. While there are other proprietary brands, you are then restricted to obtaining replacement parts and service from only their dealers so you're at their mercy as to what they charge. There are also lesser known or offshore brands who may not have equal quality, reliability or parts availability of the brands mentioned.

 

[ChrisBeall]

Well, after a full regeneration, the water level in the 18" diameter brine tank has RISEN about 2.5 inches, the opposite of what was desired. (I had filled the tank to somewhat above the 'normal' water level before the regeneration). So the problem still exists.

I'm fairly confident in the injection valve work I did yesterday. The brine valve is clearly opening, since water flows into the tank. The overflow safety valve doesn't seem to inhibit flow regardless of its position. The brine line is transparent and I didn't see air bubbles during the quick test yesterday (OK, there was one pea-sized bubble that eventually disappeared, probably caused by having the injector apart).

Based on a comment from Bannerman in another thread, it looks like the air check might be the next logical place to look. Any other thoughts?

 

[ChrisBeall]

With regards to a new softener, it's best to choose Fleck, Clack or Autotrol as the control valve brands. While there are other proprietary brands, you are then restricted to obtaining replacement parts and service from only their dealers so you're at their mercy as to what they charge. There are also lesser known or offshore brands who may not have equal quality, reliability or parts availability of the brands mentioned.

I agree, and going with the tried-and-true is my normal approach. I just felt that it looked like WaterGroup was blending that technology with some evolution in design. If no one ever tries out those designs, we never get improvements. But parts (and technical data) availability is a hot button for me. While I suspect that current-production injector parts would work in my unit, I can't be sure because I haven't even been able to determine its model number, much less get a parts diagram.

 

[ditttohead]

You have a Fleck 3600. I have the service manual, pm me if you want it. It was discontinued many years ago. It uses some parts that are still available but the piston and timer assembly are long gone. Definitely time to upgrade.

 

[Reach4]

You have a Fleck 3600.

It is very impressive looking -- brass casting and all.

 

[Bannerman]

When I needed parts for mine, I ordered 3600 seals and spacers from Softener Parts as they had those parts available but no piston. When I attempted to install the parts, they were not close to the proper size. (Newest spacers and seals are below old ones)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y91hq0iouts4qww/Seals & Spacers comparison.jpg?dl=0

Subsequent communication with Pentair revealed I have the WaterGroup 3650 which utilizes Fleck 5600 spacers and seals. The CSR wasn't certain it the 5600 piston would fit but as I rebuilt my valve in 2014, I can confirm that the 5600 piston does fit after the small modification specified previously.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cw9rwo0aksbt8dl/Control head - from rear.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/akawdgfodtt06yd/2013-12-16 16.22.31.jpg?dl=0

 

[ChrisBeall]

You have a Fleck 3600. I have the service manual, pm me if you want it.

Thanks for the offer, but I'm not going to spend much time on this, as replacement is clearly due, but (see below) it might be good to know if the injector nozzle and throat are still available...

 

[ChrisBeall]

It is very impressive looking -- brass casting and all.

Yep, they don't make 'em like they used to...

 

[ChrisBeall]

Update on diagnosis:

I disconnected the line to the brine tank at the brine valve, then started a regeneration. An hour later, the brine valve was opened to brine the resin. A fingertip on the brine valve opening felt pulsations, but there was a small, steady stream of water OUT OF the valve, not suction. I could easily stop this with light finder pressure. I checked over several minutes, but that result did not change. So I think I'm back to the injector. Tomorrow I'll pull it off again, but if it looks the same as it did when I reassembled it, I won't have a clue what to do next except (if I can find them) install a new nozzle and throat.

Another observation: when I was cleaning up the injector, I ran a Q-Tip into the brass body behind the plastic injector body, into the hole behind the injector throat. Black squishy gunk in there. Probing deeper, I got out a clump of much lighter colored grease. Seemed like a lot more than appropriate. I got to wondering about how the injector works. I understand getting suction when water flows from the nozzle to the throat, but how does it later fill the brine tank, i.e. NOT act as a venturi? Reversing the water direction through the injector might have that effect, or perhaps just blocking the exit path through the throat.

One other question. There's no integral bypass valve on this unit; it's set up with three separate valves, all of which are hard to get completely closed. Is there a position of the regeneration control that will allow me to work on the injector without isolating the whole unit from the water supply?

 

[ENIGMA-2]

Another observation: when I was cleaning up the injector, I ran a Q-Tip into the brass body behind the plastic injector body, into the hole behind the injector throat. Black squishy gunk in there.

Manganese in water can cause this. In sufficient amounts it can foul softener resin beds.

Around here, manganese broke down the galvanized well casings of all the homes in our subdivision and we got the black, goo throughout our plumbing. Discovered it when the water pump failed. It was packed full of the black, goo. Had to have a new well put in, new submersible pump & pressure tank and new water softener (completely clogged the resin tank). Well guy told me had to replace all of the copper water lines in another families homes due to this problem. Said they were 1/4 to 1/2 clogged.

New well casing is plastic and won't have this problem.

 

[ChrisBeall]

Manganese in water can cause this. In sufficient amounts it can foul softener resin beds.

Don't think that's the case here. The black goop was confined to a very small area just behind the injector throat and the throat itself was clean. I suspect the whole area was packed with grease (contrary to the recommendations I've seen) and some of it collected particulates as they passed by.

Something to watch for though. Manganese is not mentioned in the water company report.

 

[ChrisBeall]

Finally, good news!

After verifying that the drain flow control was not clogged, blowing on the brine line and getting bubbles in the brine tank, and sucking on the brine line and watching (carefully) the water rise from the tank toward my mouth, I went back to the injector. I removed the injector nozzle, which still appeared to be clear, but the opening was VERY small. Using a stiff wire, I detected a roughness on the inside of the nozzle and gently scraped it away, slightly increasing the size of the orifice. I think I was removing a deposit and not cutting away the plastic of the nozzle. I left the glued throat in place, but gave it an extra 1/16 turn to snug it up a bit.

After reassembly (and mopping up the floor...) I put the control into 'Brine and rinse', disconnected power to the clock motor and watched as the water level in the 18" diameter brine tank dropped gradually about 4 inches. I reconnected power and let the regeneration complete, which added less than an inch of water back into the brine tank (it's set for 6 lbs of salt, but the cam has a slight groove worn in it, so the actual amount is probably a bit less).

So I now have a net negative on the water level during a regeneration. All that remains is to take a shower and see how the water feels. And only one of the three bypass valves is still dripping, which is an improvement (I've ducted the drip into the open brine tank for now). I should have enough soft water, even without another regeneration, to give me time to find a replacement unit.

Many thanks to all who helped!

 

[Reach4]

which added less than an inch of water back into the brine tank

It should have been 1.62 inches if there was no salt. I don't know what the factor is to account for the water displaced by salt, but it might be double the height expected.

One of these days I will measure pellets in water.

 

[ditttohead]

Obviously it varies greatly with the type of salt, size, etc, but in general, it is a 2.5 factor. Forgive me if my terminology is incorrect, I am not a mathematician.
See example below and correct my statement please,

A 24" wide brine tank dissolves approx. 2 pounds of salt per inch with salt/water combined.
A 24" brine tank dissolves approx. 5 pounds of salt per inch without salt (water only).

This is the primary reason for grids. It allows the use of much smaller brine tanks by sacrificing the salt storage capacity. We build custom grid plates here and have built many brine tanks that would barely hold one regenerations worth of dry salt due to severe space limitations. Other times we have installed swimming pool size underground brine pits.. has anyone ever gone swimming in a brine pit? Steel rung ladders don't last very long inside these...

 

[DonL]

A 24" brine tank dissolves approx. 5 pounds of salt per inch without salt (water only).

How can it dissolve salt if there is none ?