Brass, SS, or PVC Pressure Tank Plumbing?

[Kubstix]

Hello everyone. Just had my well pump go a month or so ago and now I am back in business. However I am starting to exhibit issues with the plumbing around the pressure tank (leaking boiler drain, release valve nut, ect). I noticed my tank is 25+ years old as well as my plumbing and thought I would be proactive before I have my family as the money is here now. I have a few questions as I will be doing this myself.

1. PVC, Stainless, Or Brass for the entire setup? My tank is in my garage if location matters (fully insulated, garage doors sealed, and heated ever so slightly).
2. I currently have a WX-202 (20 gal). I plan on switching to a WX-202XL (26 gal). Is this OK and would it be better?
3. I am currently running on a 30/50 switch. Can I move to a 40/60?
4. What size is the black flexible well line for barb size fitting (house built in 1978)?
5. Can I do the same thing and use a 90 degree elbow barb fitting like previous owner did? I haven't noticed any issues currently. I highlighted the need for my elbow in the picture.

Thank You

 

[Valveman]

A 202 tank only holds 5 gallons of water. So your pump is cycling on/off for every 5 gallons used. This is bad for the pump, tank, pressure switch, check valve, and gives varying and low pressure in the house. You would have much better pressure switching to a constant pressure system, the pump would not be cycling everything to death, and you would have MUCH better pressure in the shower.

Installing a PK1A kit would eliminate all these problems, take up a lot less space, and give constant pressure to the house. Every fitting needed is in the PK1A kit, and they are all Stainless Steel.

The black pipe coming it looks like 1" poly. I would use a 1" barb fitting with extra long barbs so you can fit two hose clamps, as that is the weak point with this type pipe.

See this link; https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/frontpage/products/custom-pk1a-pside-kick-kit

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Kubstix]

A 202 tank only holds 5 gallons of water. So your pump is cycling on/off for every 5 gallons used. This is bad for the pump, tank, pressure switch, check valve, and gives varying and low pressure in the house. You would have much better pressure switching to a constant pressure system, the pump would not be cycling everything to death, and you would have MUCH better pressure in the shower.

Installing a PK1A kit would eliminate all these problems, take up a lot less space, and give constant pressure to the house. Every fitting needed is in the PK1A kit, and they are all Stainless Steel.

The black pipe coming it looks like 1" poly. I would use a 1" barb fitting with extra long barbs so you can fit two hose clamps, as that is the weak point with this type pipe.

See this link; https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/frontpage/products/custom-pk1a-pside-kick-kit

I've been reading about the CSV systems, but I keep telling myself why change? This pump lasted 25 years (Myers Predator) and this guy had 4 kids who lived in this house. I am just not entirely sold on this system for that specific reason. I guess in a way is there a real advantage to this new system and enough data to show it's better for the pump? I don't really have any pressure issues at all, but I figured 25 years ago 30/50 was the in. Now it looks like 40/60 is the in and I thought I might as well switch. More or less, sell me on why I should change to a system like this?

 

[ThirdGenPump]

I prefer brass. Stainless steel is also fine.
I don't recommend PVC.
I don't use any threaded nylon fittings, like your 90 hose adapter. I've found too many broken over the years.
I don't thread into the females on brass tank tee's like yours is, on the nipple between the tee and ball valve. The newer brass is more prone to cracking.
If you have the clearance above, I'd use a WX-203.
The pump should have no trouble making a 40/60 range. The only reason not to increase it is your faith in the houses plumbing.
It is 1" HDPE coming in. I'd lose the 9o adapter and the coupling. Instead use a 1"x3" brass nipple, a 1" brass elbow, and a 1" brass adapter.
Your current set up has a plug where there should be a relief valve.

 

[Kubstix]

I prefer brass. Stainless steel is also fine.
I don't recommend PVC.
I don't use any threaded nylon fittings, like your 90 hose adapter. I've found too many broken over the years.
I don't thread into the females on brass tank tee's like yours is, on the nipple between the tee and ball valve. The newer brass is more prone to cracking.
If you have the clearance above, I'd use a WX-203.
The pump should have no trouble making a 40/60 range. The only reason not to increase it is your faith in the houses plumbing.
It is 1" HDPE coming in. I'd lose the 9o adapter and the coupling. Instead use a 1"x3" brass nipple, a 1" brass elbow, and a 1" brass adapter.
Your current set up has a plug where there should be a relief valve.

I can certainly upgrade to the WX-203. My issue is with diameter, height is OK and it looks like the diameter of a 202 vs 203 is exactly the same.

75% of my house plumbing is CPVC with the other 25% remaining is copper. He had an addition put on the house in 1992 in which this section copper was used. Rest of the plumbing in the house was redone with CPVC in 1992 as well. I can't imagine I will have pipe issues?

I plane to eliminate the nipples, I imagined whoever plumbed this before needed to make an extension of everything to line the pipes up, I'm not sure but I will eliminate these for sure.

Can you help me out on losing the 90 then? I would have to cut the well line just a slight tad, add a regular 1" barb to 1" male connector, get a 90 1" female/female elbow, check valve next, then to tank T?

 

[ThirdGenPump]

Can you help me out on losing the 90 then? I would have to cut the well line just a slight tad, add a regular 1" barb to 1" male connector, get a 90 1" female/female elbow, check valve next, then to tank T?

Correct.

 

[Valveman]

I've been reading about the CSV systems, but I keep telling myself why change? More or less, sell me on why I should change to a system like this?

Your exactly right! If it ain't broke don't fix it. And the old pressure tank/pressure switch method is tried and true. Your system is proof that most pumps will last decades with even just a 20 gallon tank (5 gallon draw) and a 30/50 or 40/60 pressure switch. And unlike VFD's, Flow Switch, and other types of pump controls that are flooding the market, the CSV utilizes the standard pressure tank/pressure switch control, which has been the mainstay of the industry for generations.

The difference is, with the CSV, not only do you have control of the on/off pressures like 40/60, but now you have control of the pressure the pump can produce, and it will stay at this pressure constantly for as long as water is being used. In other words, the pressure will just stay at a constant 50 PSI for as long as you are in the shower, even if you in the shower for a month. Without the CSV, the pump will cycle on and off and the pressure will vary from 40 to 60 PSI for every 5 gallons of water used.

Not only does constant pressure make for much stronger pressure in the shower, but it will make the washing machine fill faster and things like that. Then there is no comparison if water is ever used for long periods of time like running a sprinkler or filling a pool. In these cases the CSV will save the pump by making it run continuously for however many hours water is being used, instead of cycling on/off every minute or so until some component of the pump system dies.

Even though it will work with any size tank, another plus of the CSV is being able to use a smaller tank. This saves space, heat, and money. And in many cases condensation and mold can be an issue, and the CSV/smaller tank just has less condensation and therefore also causes less mold.

See the following link to pictures and reviews from LOTS of people who are now using this system. I get all the stuff above from people who actually use the CSV. You will find where several of them say they never thought they had a pressure problem in all these years until they experienced constant pressure for the first time. I guess if you don't know what you are missing it doesn't hurt.
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/customer-gallery

Thanks

 

[Cacher_Chick]

For clarification, PVC is not approved for indoor supply piping in most places. CPVC, on the other hand, is.

 

[Kubstix]

Correct.

How do I make the transition from the 1" Ball Valve to 1" CPVC? Call me crazy, but my current setup looks like a shark bite is making this transition to CPVC. I cannot find a union/transition that is 1" male brass to 1" CPVC. Or am I wrong and this is 1" to 3/4 CPVC transition? Thank You.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

Yes they did it with a shark bite, which you could undo and reuse if you wanted.

It looks like 3/4" CPVC to me. 1" CPVC I find is far less common.

I'd do 1" Ball valve on the tee. 1" CPVC brass adapter. 3/4"x1" CPVC Bushing, 3/4"CPVC steet elbow, short piece of 3/4" CPVC, 3/4" CPVC elbow.

There are several ways to do it, those are all parts I stock. I don't deal with CPVC often.

These are the CPVC adapters I use. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Sioux-Chief-646-CG4-1-CPVC-1-MIP-Brass-Straight-Adapter-Lead-FreeA
I've seen plastic threaded adapters used but I have no trust of those.

 

[Valveman]

Looks like the condensation from that tank is causing black mold. I would wear a mask while working on that.

 

[Reach4]

It would be best to get rid of that check valve between the elbow and the tank tee. Presumably pump survived for 25 years with the check valve there, but most people think it is better to not have that check valve.

When you attach to your barbed fitting to plastic, you normally use two stainless clamps with the worm gears on opposite sides. Is that existing elbow steel? If it is not magnetic, I think you might be able to keep that.

Kubstix, do you know the pH of your water? I would consider santitizing my well and plumbing after or during this work. For during, I might use the old tank while recirculating the chlorine in the well. Then swap tanks in the middle of the process. That might complicate the work, and I don't have that all thought out. Doing the sanitizing after the plumbing changes would be good too. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/

Most tank tees have both male and female threads on each end. It looks like you tank tee has female 3/4 threads and male 1 inch. They also have tank tees with 1 and 1-1/4.

Some tank tees have a union on the path to the tank. That can simplify installs in some cases.

The WX-203 uses the same connection size as your WX-202. The larger ones use a larger connection to the the tank. http://www.amtrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/MC7025-09_17-WXT-Sizing-Card.pdf

Don't use female threads, but male plastic threads are usually OK. Use PTFE tape and plastic-safe pipe dope such as Rectorseal T plus 2.

Looks like the condensation from that tank is causing black mold. I would wear a mask while working on that.

I would add some bleach to my bucket and use a mop. I would use gloves if working with the cleaning solution by hand.

 

[Kubstix]

Looks like the condensation from that tank is causing black mold. I would wear a mask while working on that.

I was afraid that's what this was. I plan on having my father remove the tank when my Fiance and I leave for Florida. Going to have him spray with some kind of mold killing detergent, scrubbing, drying, and putting a few coats of mold resistant paint on the wall here. Does this sound like a proper way to handle this? Is there anyway to insulate the new tank when I install it, like do they make a cover for a tank?

 

[Reach4]

Most black colored mold is not one of the dangerous kinds. That does not mean some care is not warranted. Try this search in a search engine for discussions: black mold overblown

I think your plan sounds good and readable. A filter mask for him in the early stages would be a reasonable precaution to add.

 

[Kubstix]

Most black colored mold is not one of the dangerous kinds. That does not mean some care is not warranted. Try this search in a search engine for discussions: black mold overblown

I think your plan sounds good and readable. A filter mask for him in the early stages would be a reasonable precaution to add.

Thank you. Yeah I figured I will have him do this prep work while we are away and when I come home I will do the tank/plumbing install. Any reason not to have that second check valve? I assume it is a 2nd because the pump has a check valve on it as well? I guess my question would be is there any negative to having the check valve on here? Goes back to my previous answer to the CSV, very skeptical of changing anything being this pump lasted a decent while.

 

[Reach4]

Any reason not to have that second check valve? I assume it is a 2nd because the pump has a check valve on it as well? I guess my question would be is there any negative to having the check valve on here?

Yes. You can search for discussions in this forum. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/is-check-valve-at-pressure-tank-necessary.65972/ is one of the discussions.

Here is my summary against:

1. could allow a vacuum in the pipe to bacteria leak into a pitless seal or plumbing joint.
2. a vacuum in the pipe could cause a water bang to occur when the water slams up.
3. forbidden in some states.
4. without a check valve, a dropping pressure gauge indication or the pump cycling occasionally, would serve as an early warning of a leak in the piping or bottom check valve.

On the pro side:

1. will serve as a backup if the one in/at the pump fails
2. required in at least one state (CT)

It is also possible to have a check valve with the innards removed. It is then just serving as a coupler. A topside check valve can be a good workaround for a down-hole leak until the pump is pulled next time. There are those who think that the topside check valve can contribute to the down-hole check valve leaking.

With hydropneumatic tanks, a topside check valve is needed.

 

[Valveman]

You also have to remember that they don't make pumps as good as they did 20-30 ago. And if that pump has been in the well for 25 years already, it is on its last leg. With newer pumps all you can do is limit the cycling to try and make them last as long as possible. All I can tell you is that heavy used pumps that had previously cycled themselves to death every 2-5 years, have now lasted almost 25 years so far after installing a CSV. So there is no telling how long a CSV can make a lightly used pump like yours last, but it will be much longer than normal.

Two check valves work fine until they don't. You are just lucky that it lasted this long without hearing a water hammer thump when the pump starts. I get calls from several people everyday who hear that "thump" when the pump starts. So I tell several people everyday to remove the top check valve and the thump goes away. You can either leave it out the extra check now, or take it out when it starts making the thumping noise.

Again the smaller tank would cause much less condensation. Insulating blankets help. But the best way to keep condensation and mold from building up is to vent the air. A good vent fan, that can be controlled with a thermostat is the best way to stop condensation.

I am a much better pump man than I am a salesman. So I just try to get people to read the reviews from people who have CSV's. Like many of them say, once you have experienced constant pressure in the shower, you will wonder how you lived without it for so long.

 

[Kubstix]

Well I can tell you I have always heard the water thump when my pump shuts off? I am guessing the thump could be the valve closing on the tank portion?

 

[Valveman]

Thump when the pump shuts off is because cycling on/off all these years has caused the check valve(s) to fail. They are sticking and the water has to reverse flow to shut them, which is what causes the thump or hammer. Cycling on/off and slamming the check valves closed from a full open position, which causes check valves to wear out is why many people use 2 check valves. But that doesn't solve the problem, just splits the destructive force a little.

This is another of many problems the CSV can solve. Instead of slamming from the full open position, the CSV causes the check valve to be in only a 1 GPM open position when the pump shuts off. The check valve is not open the thickness of a piece of paper when the pump shuts off. This way is doesn't slam a check until it is destroys itself. Plus the fewer times a pump cycles, the less times the check valve has to close.

 

[Kubstix]

Bump. So I am in the middle of this project now and I just have some slight concerns. I have the tank ready to go, and the plumbing teacher in school has jimmy rigged my tank tee setup to pressure test and make sure I have no leaks (no leaks). We hooked a 1" black pipe (well pipe) to my barb and honestly it could be deceiving because of my well pipe being in a corner but I just don't know if it's 1". To me it seems like 3/4 polyethylene pipe, but I look at the 3/4 CPVC coming off the ball valve and the well line does look larger. Can anyone tell by my pictures? My issue is (and it could just be in my head) that my hose barb looks humongous compared to the one currently on the line. Sorry my picture doesn't have the hose barb on it but I'll link what I used.


Barb
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Apollo-...n_STH_BOSS_3124625-_-product_desc__WD14764960