Brand new tiled shower AND A LEAK!!!

[DopeyRunr]

I cannot describe how upset I am. After countless leak-free tests, today, during the first official shower in our DIY renovation, water came pouring down out of the ceiling below. After some troubleshooting, I've determined the problem is probably a faulty soldered joint at the elbow (but possibly the joint at the valve). The leak only seems to happen when the shower is running (not just the tub) and there's a little pivoting "play" in the elbow (up and down) that suggests that's the problem.

The attached image shows what the inside of the wall looks like. It's long since been enclosed and tiled over.
The tub enclosure is fresh subway tile. I REALLY don't want to have to tear that apart. The wall behind the plumbing is the (also) newly remodeled master bathroom, with beadboard running up the wall about 48". Above that is drywall.

My plan of action is to open up that wall up high, and confirm that the elbow joint is the culprit. Between a sawzall and a reciprocating cutter, I can free the support from the studs and then the elbow from the support, and re-solder the connection.

My question is this: how can I re-secure the elbow to the 2x4? I can't see how I can get two screws into it from the backside. Maybe if I screw it REALLY low on the 2x4 BEFORE soldering, and leave the joint sticking down enough below the 2x4 so I can solder the joint? What's the best approach here? I'm sure others have faced something similar...

Do you have any other advice for me?

Thanks so much for your help!

Chris

 

[Terry]

You can remove the cover plate on the valve and look from there. They make a camera on a wand that should give you a look. They also make tub spouts that cover a bit more area in case you need to enlarge the hole there. If any soldering is done, my sure you wet things down and have a way to put any fires out. You may want to lift out a tile and replace it after the work is done.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Dj2]

Let's assume your guess is correct and one of the fittings is leaking. Then you will have to remove enough tiles to gain access, open the wallboard and do a repair. I would replace fittings, not re-solder. And yes, keep a fire extinguisher, a water spray bottle and wet towel handy.

Repairing the tiles is not that complicated, and done correctly nobody will ever know about the leak. Then you worry about the ceiling below.

If you want to work from the back wall, you will have to cut the drywall to gain access, cut the two supply pipes, the riser and the pipe to the spout and free the blocking.

Now you can do the same set up with new copper materials, and secure the rough in to the blocking. Bring it to the 4 cut pipes and solder. Then secure the blocking back to the studs.

Now do a leak test. I don't know what kind of leak test you did, but I leave the whole thing under pressure for a few hours, I don't go to lunch, I stay right there to catch a leak, if any, and to shut the main, if there's a leak...before I decide to finish the tiles.

 

[Jadnashua]

The only way to reliably repair a soldered connection is to first remove the fitting, then clean up the pipe and fitting, reflux it, then resolder it. A new fitting may be easier, but isn't required if it is cleaned up well.

The big question is how do you gain access. Worst case, you might consider a remodel plate under the standard trim plate. That would give you a larger hole to access things if you don't want to repair the tile or the wall behind it.

 

[DopeyRunr]

If you want to work from the back wall, you will have to cut the drywall to gain access, cut the two supply pipes, the riser and the pipe to the spout and free the blocking.

If the leak is in the connection between the top of the riser and the elbow for the shower arm, I'm not sure why I would need to cut supply pipes. I was thinking I'd just have to cut out the blocking, clean up the end of the riser and solder on a new elbow. Is there something I'm missing?

As for the leak test, I capped off the tub spot and shower arm and left it under pressure for about an hour. Everything was 100% tight.

I'll use a new elbow for sure - not taking any chances.

 

[Dj2]

"If the leak is in the connection between the top of the riser and the elbow for the shower arm"

Sorry I missed that.

Yes, if the leak is up at the shower head elbow, you can skip everything, don't need to cut at the rough in.

Just cut under the elbow, solder a coupling, a short pipe and a new drop ear elbow. Fasten to the blocking.

 

[Reach4]

Maybe you can tell better from the original photo. Is this soldered?

" there's a little pivoting "play" in the elbow (up and down) that suggests that's the problem."
How can that be with the screws securing the drop-ear elbow?

If you have to go in for real, how about going in through the other side of the wall?

 

[Dj2]

Maybe you can tell better from the original photo. Is this soldered?
View attachment 45466

" there's a little pivoting "play" in the elbow (up and down) that suggests that's the problem."
How can that be with the screws securing the drop-ear elbow?

If you have to go in for real, how about going in through the other side of the wall?

The OP said that he had everything under pressure for an hour. If the riser was not soldered into the rough in, as the detailed picture suggests, it would have leaked instantly.

 

[Reach4]

The OP said that he had everything under pressure for an hour. If the riser was not soldered into the rough in, as the detailed picture suggests, it would have leaked instantly.

I had mis-read that part.

Where do you think that little pivoting "play" in the elbow (up and down) could come from? Something is off.

 

[Ladiesman217]

You can remove the cover plate on the valve and look from there. They make a camera on a wand that should give you a look. They also make tub spouts that cover a bit more area in case you need to enlarge the hole there. If any soldering is done, my sure you wet things down and have a way to put any fires out. You may want to lift out a tile and replace it after the work is done.

I would buy a camera and inspect the shower pipe connections at each end inside the wall. Run the shower for a short amount of time, remove the shower head extension pipe, then insert the camera and look for wet areas up high and near the valve. Since the tiles are brand new and can easily be replaced with duplicate tiles, I would work from the tile side. Sometimes what looks like more work is the easiest way when all is said and done.

Sample camera:

https://www.amazon.com/Depstech-Sem...pID=41spDay-HGL&preST=_SX342_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

 

[Reach4]

Test idea:
Remove the spout. Block off the spout nipple with a cap. Put water into the top until it will not take more water.

After 4 hours or other appropriate time, open the cap over a container. If the only leak is up top, about 0.00484 gallons comes out, which is about 0.62 ounces of water (for my example, I assumed 4 ft of 1/2 type L). If the leak is at the top, much less comes out.

https://www.hotwaterproducts.com/service/pipevolumecalculator.html

 

[Dj2]

I had mis-read that part.

Where do you think that little pivoting "play" in the elbow (up and down) could come from? Something is off.

The first place I'd look is the 2 screws holding the drop ear elbow. If they are tight...maybe the blocking moves.

I find it hard to make conclusions without physical inspections and without knowing how it was done.

There are many ways a solder connection can leak (right away or later).

 

[Kreemoweet]

My question is this: how can I re-secure the elbow to the 2x4?

One of these things might come in handy for that: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Elkhart-56876-1-2-CxF-90-Hi-Ear-Elbow-Lead-Free

 

[DopeyRunr]

Thanks everyone for the advice. The endoscope arrives today and since I have plenty of access from below, and through the valve/tub spout/shower head holes, I should be able to see the leak pretty clearly when I tackle it this weekend. The high ear elbow might really do the trick if I have problems enlarging the shower head hole in the tile to screw the new one in place.

 

[Reach4]

You can get a 3.5 inch, and probably even bigger, escutcheon if needed.

Are you confident that the problem is up top?

 

[DopeyRunr]

You can get a 3.5 inch, and probably even bigger, escutcheon if needed.

Are you confident that the problem is up top?

No, but the camera will reveal all.

 

[DopeyRunr]

Just to wrap things up, with the endoscope I was able to see that the top of the pipe and the drop ear elbow were completely detached. Major solder fail on my part.

I enlarged the hole in the tile enough to unscrew the drop ear elbow, I cut into the drywall behind, and cut out the blocking with a sawzall. Meanwhile I replaced the cheap flux that came with the plumbing starter kit, for a new container of Oatey 95, and soldered a new drop ear elbow onto an 8" piece of pipe. Side note: the Oatey 95 made an AMAZING difference in how the solder flowed into the fitting.

Once it had cooled down, I held up the new piece to the hole in the tile wall to measure exactly where to cut the existing pipe, which I did with a close quarters cutter. I sprayed down the inside of the wall (the backside of cement board and the studs) with water until they were pretty saturated, hung up an Oatey fire-resistant heat shield for good measure, and then soldered the straight coupling. I ran some water through it, then capped off the shower arm and let it sit under pressure for about an hour.

I'll keep an eye on it the next couple of days, then patch up the drywall.

Thanks to everyone who helped out this plumbing newbie. Hopefully I won't need to come back later in the spring when I replace two old hose bibbs with frost-free versions.

 

[Jadnashua]

Tinning flux does make things easier! Especially if you don't solder connections every day. You get a visual indication that the joint is hot enough since the solder in the flux starts to melt verses guessing and potentially overheating it.

Glad you solved your problem.