Boiler size question

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Leon82

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Current boiler is 140 in 112 out.
I used the slantfin app to input my room,glass,wall and floor parameters.
I'm getting 42k loss.

It looks like I can use a 50k boiler.

I'm looking at slantfin s60 or weil McLain gv90+3. I don't think I want a condensing unit.
What do you think
 

Dana

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If it's broken up into zones, the amount of radiation on each zone matters too.

The 3-plate ES2-3 Burnham comes with heat-purge controls includes, which gives them a performance edge over the Slantfin S-series despite the oversizing factor. The direct-vented ESC-3 Burhnam is even better, since it doesn't have the 24/365 parasitic infiltration drive of an atmospheric drafted boiler.

How was the 42K load calculated? (Slantfin's tool regularly overshoots reality by 25% or more). If you have a fuel use history it's possible to nail the whole-house load down pretty tightly using fuel use per heating degree-day data, and the local 99% outside design temp. It's conceivable that your actual load is within the output of a Slantfin S-34. How big is the house, and what's your ZIP code (for weather data purposes only.)
 

Leon82

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06401 Newhaven county ct.

I will upload a print with zone infobwhen I get home. I used the slantfin tool and put my wall and window data in
 

Leon82

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A small update because I have to wait for my kid to wake up.
1400 sq ft ranch

Summer avg ccf perday is .52-.59

Coldest month avg 8 ccf per day.avg temp 19 deg

Also on the slantfin calculator I put 5 degrees as the outside temp
 

Leon82

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Here is a crude picture if it is not clear I can clean it up when I'm home.

One zone is the right side of the house, including the center bedroom and the canter bath.

Zone 2 is the 3 rooms on the left.

I want to split the left zone because the rear bedroom gets colder than the front.


Thanks
 

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Dana

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The 99% outside design temp for New Haven is +7F, so you're probably within a degree of that, but +5F isn't insane.

Without specifying the heat content of your utility's gas per ccf we can ball-park it at 102,000 BTU/ccf. For argument's sake let's assume the existing boiler still has a steady-state efficiency of (140K/112K=) 80% efficiency. That means every ccf delivers 0.8 x 102,000= 81,600 BTU/ccf. So during the period that averaged +19F, the boiler was delivering 8 ccf x 81,600 BTU/ccf = 652,800 BTU/day into the heating system, or an average of 652,800/24 hours= 27,200 BTU/hr at an average outdoor temp of +19F.

But your outdside design temp is +5F, not +19F, so...

Using a presumptive +65F heating/cooling balance point temp (the commonly used heating degree-day base), that's 65F-19F= 46F heating degrees below the balance point, while +5F is 60F heating degrees below the balance point. So if it takes 27,200 BTU/hr for 46F heating degrees, that's 27,200/46F= 591 BTU per heating degree.

So at +5F, a 60F delta below the balance point the load would be 60F x 591 BTU = 35,478 BTU/hr

That's 18% lower than the SlantFin tool's estimate.

For a 1400' house that comes out to about 25 BTU/hr per square foot of conditioned space, which on the very high side of a normal range. Most 2 x 4 framed insulated houses in this region with storm windows or retrofit double-pane replacement windows and an insulated foundation will come in at around 15 BTU/hr per foot. It would take more information than what's been given to figure out why it's that high, but it's 10K or more higher than most tight 1400' houses in southern New England. Mind you, a perimeter of 2-3' of exposed concrete foundation that's not insulated and an air-leaky basement & attic can easily add 10,000 BTU/hr to the heat load, and it's usually cost effective to fix those.

Since it' well-used oversized boiler it may not be even hitting 80% anymore, so that's something of an upper bound, especially if you're also heating your domestic hot water with gas.

It's a lot easier to sort out the zone radiation biz if you do the arithmetic, rather me guessing from the sketch.

Looks to me like 80' total(?) which balances fine with 50K of boiler output at high temp, and would still be OK with 60K of boiler output, if operated as a single zone. At 60K of output you'd be looking at 750 BTU/hr per foot, which completely balances at an average water temp of 210F or so.

At a heat load of 35,478 BTU/hr @ +5F, and 80' of baseboard that's, ~450 BTU/hr per foot, which balances at an average water temp of ~160-165F. That's well above the condensing temp at +5F, but at your average winter outdoor temp you could still run at condensing temperatures if you went that route.

If one room is colder than another the better solution is to add more radiation to that room or lower the heat loss, rather than micro-zoning it. The more you break it up into smaller zones, the more on/off cycling you get, which takes a toll on both efficiency and wear & tear on the boiler. If anything you'd be better of joining the zones into a single zone if you're going to heat it with a cast-iron boiler. There are modulating condensing boilers that cut back to under 8000 BTU/hr, which might work, provided the zone radiation for the smallest zone won't short-cycle like crazy when running at condensing temperatures.
 

Leon82

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I was remodeling the bathroom and adding lights in the living room so I had to move the insulation around so I probably didn't have it all back. I do have new replacement windows. It was also a very cold winter if I recall. the year before it was about 6.5 ccf

I have been downstairs and the boiler will run only for a few minutes sometimes.

Ill have to put some thought into this
 
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Dana

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A quick & dirty analysis of the heat loss of your foundation:

Looks like your house is about 30 x 48', but one of the 30' sides is mostly garage, so we'll ignore that for the time being. That means you have 48' + 48' + 30'= 126' of fully exposed foundation perimeter. Without measuring it, let's assume your exposure is really 2' average, not the 3'. That comes to 252 square feet of concrete exp

The R-value of 8" thick concrete wall is about R0.65, and adding in another R0.65 for the interior air film and R0.15 for the exterior air film you're looking at a best-case performance of about R1.5, or a U-factor of 0.67 BTU per hour per square foot per degree of temperature difference.

Let's also assume that when it's 5F outside the basement temp drops to about 50F. That's a 45F temperature difference. So the heat loss out of the exposed concrete is then at least:

252' x U0.67 x 45F= 7598 BTU/hr.

If the exposure really is 3' and not 2', the conducted heat loss is about 11,397 BTU/hr.

If the basement temp is warmer than 50F when it's +5F out, the loss is higher still.

So, what happens when you insulate the basement to code min? (= R15 continuous foam, or R5 foam + an R13 studwall). Instead of a U-factor of 0.67, the U-factor drops to 0.059. But the basment will probably idle along at 65F, not 50F, for a 60F temperature difference.

252' x U0.059 x 60F= 877 BTU/hr, if the exposure is only 2', a reduction of 6721 BTU/hr, which is 19% of the total heat load based on fuel use.

If it's 3' of exposure, and 378 square feet of exposure the loss is then"

378' x U0.059 x 60F= 1338 BTU/hr, a savings of 10,059 BTU/hr, which is 28% of your total heat load (and fuel use.)

And that's just the above grade portion. It also reduces losses to the cool soil as well.

You can't use just an R19 studwall approach without substantial risk of mold/rot inside the studwall. With 1.5-3" of rigid polyiso held to the concrete by furring through screwed the foundation with TapCons the mold risk is near zero, and you can mount 1/2" drywall (painted or not) as the code required thermal barrier against ignition. (This is what I did to my own home in Worcester, MA using reclaimed roofing polyiso, which is VERY cheap compared to virgin-stock goods.) If you want a fully finished basement with power & lights wired through the walls it's easier to go with 1" foil faced polyiso glued to the concrete with blobs of foam-board construction adhesive, and a 2x4 studwall with R13-R15 UNFACED (or kraft faced at worst, but definitely not foil faced) batts. Standard latex paint is a sufficient interior side vapor retarder against wintertime moisture accumulation, and the facers on the foam are adequate for rejecting ground moisture diffusion into the wall on the below grade section, but it needs to be able to dry toward the interior, which it can through 3-5 perm paint (standard interior latex.)

Since polyiso is somewhat hygroscopic, keep the cut edge off the slab by a half-inch or more, and keeping the bottom plate of the studwall off the slab is also important. An inch of EPS or XPS (but not polyiso) under the bottom plate that extends under the polyiso is a sufficient capillary break against ground moisture, and keeps the temperature of the bottom plate above the summertime dew point averages, keeping it dry & mold-free even during the dog-days of summer.

Reclaimed foam is cheap & effective for projects like this. Searching the local craigslist for the terms rigid insulation, will often find local sources. Worst-case, depending on where you are in CT it may be worth the drive up to Green Insulation Group in Worcester, MA, or Nationwide Foam in Framingham MA. Roofing foam usually starts at 2", and it's fine to go thicker than 1" with a studwall approach, but no thinner than 1" or you risk mold on the above-grade section of the studwall.

Before closing it all in, seal the top of the rigid foam to the foundation and foundation sill with can-foam. If you have to cut'n'cobble a bit of foam to make a continuous foam layer over the top of the foundation, foundation sill, and band joist that works too. You can then safely cut up some R15 rock wool batts to cover the band joist region for fire-safety and higher R.

Do a good job with the can-foam here- band joist & foundation sill leakage is usually the largest air leak in otherwise tight houses, adding up to more cross sectional area than all window & door crackage combined (!).

So, if you're planning to insulate the basement, when looking at heating source you should now be thinking of a heat load between 20-25,000 BTU/hr, not 35-40,000 BTU/hr, which affects your options by quite a bit, since that also lowers your water temperature requirements into the condensing zone. You may be better off with a tank type combi-heater like the smallest HTP Versa, especially if you want to micro-zone it, since the thermal mass of the tank keeps it from short-cycling on zone calls.
 

Leon82

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Thanks, Ill have to check this out.
The house was built in 1968 and the foundation is cinder block.
 

Leon82

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SO from what I have read for a mod con boiler to operate in condensing mode the returning water needs to be less than 130 degrees.

For example, there is a 44k btu knight mod con boiler which can run down to 20%. so if I left the two zones and set the water at 150(hoping for 20 degree drop) the smallest zone would be 13000 btu(according to slantfin chart 33 linear ft at 4 gpm) 20% of the 44k is 8800 btu so this unit shouldn't short cycle?

Am I phrasing that right?
I don't need dhw setup with the boiler .

Thanks
 

Dana

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CMU foundations aren't quite as lossy as poured concrete, but they're almost. It's more like R1.8 instead of R1.5. CMU foundations leak a lot more AIR than poured concrete though.

The condensing zone really starts around 125F for natural gas, but with propane it can approach 130F.

HTP's UFT-80 has a 10:1 turn-down ratio, and can cruise along at ~7700 BTU/hr output at min-fire in condensing mode (8000 BTU/hr in, 7700 BTU/hr out , 96% efficiency.) There are a few others

At 130F AWT (135F out, 125F back, the beginning of condensing, ~90% efficiency), fin-tube baseboard puts out about 250 BTU/hr per running foot. At 120F AWT (mid-90s combustion efficiency on the boiler) fin-tube puts out about 200 BTU/hr. So a 33' baseboard zone can deliver 6600 BTU/hr at min-90s combustion efficiency, but it'll be cycling on/off with any mod-con boiler.

That cycling wouldn't be too bad with something that modulates as low as the UFT-80, but would be a potential problem for boilers that can only drop back to 15,000 BTU/hr.

The Lochinvar WH-055 can drop back to 10,450 BTU/hr out, which would be higher than ideal unless you add radiation. Do they have a smaller model?

If you're heating hot water with a standalone tank, heating it with an indirect fired tank off a mod con boiler (or a tank-type condensing combi) is more efficient, and delivers better hot water performance. The combi is a better choice if your smallest zone would short-cycle the smallest mod-cons at condensing temps.
 

Leon82

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Thanks,

no that is the smallest size for them, the price seemed reasonable to me and a few guys here had good things to say about them. Which is why I reconsidered a modcon.

I have a Bosch tankless for water..

My other thought was to pipe it to one zone, either using the pump that comes with the boiler , or wiring the circulators to run at the same time so if either tstat called for heat both zones ran.
 

Dana

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IIRC Lochinvar voids the warranty if you pump direct, even if you've done all the math and prove that it's fine. They insist on primary/secondary piping.

Driving the radiation loops with single Bumblebee or Viridian set up with and a couple of zone valves might make more sense than separate circulators on your fairly small zone loops. If set up to establish a programmed ~10F delta-T or a constant pressure mode it'll vary the pumping power as-needed (if set up for delta-T it can even modulate pumping power with the load in much the same way that the boiler does.) It's 2 x the price of a Taco-007, but you only need one, and it would use less than 1/4 the total power of an old-school circulator. When running a mod-con in nearly-continuous flow mode the pumping power starts to add up to something real, and the delta-Ts get super-narrow at lower water temps when blasting away at 3-5 gpm. There's a few different pumps with different features and strategies that could work well, and it's worth reading up on them when re-designing to accommodate a mod-con.
 

Leon82

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Thanks again.

I knew primary secondary was needed, and it looks like setting up for this type of boiler setup high efficiency circulators are required for true energy savings.
 

Leon82

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So if there was one pump set to circulate the primary loop and an other to circulate thru the baseboards you set both pumps to maintain the -10 Delta-T or the primary loop pump to maintain a certain flow rate thru the boiler?
 
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