Blue Solids from New Construction House w/ Copper

[Stephen Abronson]

Hello,

I have had numerous issues with my GC installed Rinnai Tankless system with a conventional circle pump on a timer back in 2012. On advice from another plumber, I replaced it with a Navien that has a built in pump and I finally have sufficient hot water and pressure.

Added Notes: I forgot to mention that I did install a Scale Sentry salt free descaler and whole house filter about 2 years ago at my water main on advice of original plumber soon after first complaining about issues after moving in. That didn't seem to help anything until I just installed the Navien. At the same time, I also put in a second Descaler made by Pelican at the point of the my Tankless on other side of the house from the water main. My City discourages salt based softeners.

After my new plumber installed the Navien and Pelican Descaler, and I showed him the electric holding tank my GC installed to prevent temp drops, he took it upon himself to remove it completely a few days later. He said it was keeping him up in the middle of the night as to why I should have so much deposits in my nearly new house.

The problem after installing the new one, and that I"ve had in the past is what I'm told is very Hard city water. Thing is I have another house next door on same water system built in 2008 with a Nortiz non circ pump system and never had a problem.
.
My new house has had many issues with hard water forcing me to replace the circ pump at least once and blamed for all my issues.

Now I am looking into blue water and want to share pictures of the removed electric holding tank that for al while was also plugged in in an attempt to provide more hot water.

Can someone point me to how to determine if the hard water deposits are coming from the City Source wAter or being created inside my closed water system by way of electrolysis or some other PH issue or?

 

[Smooky]

It might be the result of having different types of anodes in each water heater. Maybe this house has an aluminum anode and the other house has a magnesium anode.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I don't know what else you might need, but you really should have a water softener. I am not saying that would solve that problem.

I am mystified by that turquoise-colored stuff. I looked at the Santa Monica report, and it showed higher than typical pH.

 

[Smooky]

As Reach4 said your city has a high pH. In most areas in your city it looks like the pH is above 8. With a high pH, aluminum hydroxide forms on aluminum anodes and it sluffs off into the hot water heater. It is a jelly like substance that is blue, green or gray. A different type of anode might solve the problem if that is what is happening.

 

[Reach4]

For my conventional water heater, I use a powered anode on well water. It's not cheap, but it protects well without entering into chemical reactions.

I don't know if the tankless units use sacrificial anodes.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

I have to ask....
Surely you are aware that you must have a water softener installed in the plumbing system if you have
a tankless unit.... You are complaining about how hard your city water is....
If you dont have one you will totally screw up that new Navian unit in a
year or so.....

Read the fine print ....Your tankless units demand soft water or it will void the warranty on your unit...

Most likely this blue "urinial cake like stuff" in your small heater would not be
there if you had a water softener ... that is just magnesium waste deposits...

 

[Stephen Abronson]

Thank you all for the notes. I realized I forgot to mention the two Descalers I have at my hosue:

About two years ago, after having low pressure and water temp drop outs for months after moving in; I researched water softeners vs descalers, and knowing some cities prohibit softener systems which mine frowns upon, I chose a salt free descaler made by Scale Sentry and installed at my water main back in 2015. I just installed a second salt free descaler system by Pelican w/ another whole house filter at same time the new plumber installed the new Navien Tankless at the point of the water heater which is on other side of the house.

So does it make a difference in your mind a descaler with whole house filters vs a sodium or potassium softener?

 

[Reach4]

Thank you all for the notes. When I researched water softeners vs descalers, and knowing some cities prohibit softener systems which mine frowns upon, I chose a salt free descaler made by Scale Sentry and installed at my water main. I just installed a second salt free descaler system at the point of the water heater which is on other side of the house made by Pelican. So does it make a difference in your mind a descaler with whole house filters vs a sodium or potassium softener?

There are people that think that salt free descalers are good, and are not like using copper bracelets for arthritis treatment. I am skeptical myself. I am not a pro. I am exaggerating about the copper bracelets thing. I am open to independent research results.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

Thank you all for the notes. I realized I forgot to mention the two Descalers I have at my hosue:

About two years ago, after having low pressure and water temp drop outs for months after moving in; I researched water softeners vs descalers, and knowing some cities prohibit softener systems which mine frowns upon, I chose a salt free descaler made by Scale Sentry and installed at my water main back in 2015. I just installed a second salt free descaler system by Pelican w/ another whole house filter at same time the new plumber installed the new Navien Tankless at the point of the water heater which is on other side of the house.

So does it make a difference in your mind a descaler with whole house filters vs a sodium or potassium softener?

Descalers are pieces of junk and they do not soften the water ....we have torn out
many of them over the years ....
they somehow are supposed to "re-condition" the water.... which is basically
a lot of smoke and mirrors and fancy wording...

These companies that sell them usually tell the customer
that they wont see results for a month or so down the road.. and eventually you will
notice a difference over time... this is a total load of horse-crap
Consider if they actually worked
they would have put water softeners out of business a very long time ago....

I dont know why your water company would frown on you installing a water softener....
and where did you actually hear this from .....probably the guy that sold you the de-scaling equipment...

You might want to call a Navien tech support and ask them what they think of
your de-scaler and what they would prefer you use to soften the water with......

 

[Reach4]

I dont know why your water company would frown on you installing a water softener....
and where did you actually hear this from .....

It is a real thing. The concern is the salt added to the sewage stream, which then gets used by the next town downstream.

http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2014/01...-salt-based-water-softeners-in-discovery-bay/
https://www.cascadianwater.com/2016/03/22/softener-bans-and-restrictions-are-they-real/

I think California (whole state or some regions -- dunno) wants softeners to be set up to use lean salting... maybe 4 pounds of salt per cubic ft of resin. Compare that to the 6 to 8 which is preferred by the users, and the 15 that is used in defining the "nominal" grains softening capacity in sales literature.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

It is a real thing. The concern is the salt added to the sewage stream, which then gets used by the next town downstream.

http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2014/01...-salt-based-water-softeners-in-discovery-bay/
https://www.cascadianwater.com/2016/03/22/softener-bans-and-restrictions-are-they-real/

I think California (whole state or some regions -- dunno) wants softeners to be set up to use lean salting... maybe 4 pounds of salt per cubic ft of resin. Compare that to the 6 to 8 which is preferred by the users, and the 15 that is used in defining the "nominal" grains softening capacity in sales literature.

I suppose it depends on where you live in the USA.. in the mid west its not an issue
most units around here use quite a bit more than 8lbs of salt per regeneration