Bladder Tank Down

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Guy Gould

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I have an 83 gallon bladder tank that is almost 4 years old that is short cycling like a jackrabbit. I tried to empty the tank (nothing came out), checked the pressure (no pressure) and there is a condensation line at about 3/4 height of tank. Water will flow to the house while it's short cycling. But I have the power shut off to prevent burning up the pump. The temperature is colder below the line than above the line. Any thoughts or suggestions?
 
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Craigpump

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Not that it matters, but what brand of tank?

If it's short cycling like you say, you better replace it before you wipe out the pump.
 

Reach4

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With zero PSI water pressure, what is the air pressure on the air precharge? If water comes out when you check, replace the tank. If water does not come out, try charging with air, and turn the pump back on.

If the precharge is pretty much normal, your symptom could be explained by blockage of the path to the tank, or the bottom of the tank full of junk. Do you have a lot of iron? The cure for that is also a new tank. That would mean that you will have a heavy bad tank to try to get out.

If the tank needs replacing and it is not full of junk, you can temporarily work around it temporarily by adding air frequently.
 

Guy Gould

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Not that it matters, but what brand of tank?

If it's short cycling like you say, you better replace it before you wipe out the pump.

There is no branding on the tank that I can recognize. The air pressure wasn't enough to register on a tire pressure gauge. The only thing that I have so far is to pressurize the tank. I don't know how much pressure to put in it. I have a 40/60 switch on it. With the new information, do you have any further suggestions?
 
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Reach4

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The air pressure wasn't enough to register on a tire pressure gauge. The only thing that I have so far is to pressurize the tank.
With the water pressure zero, put in 38 PSI with a compressor. If it holds we will be surprised, but check anyway.

If the pressure does not hold, the tank is bad. It happens. Get a new one.

As a work-around for the failed tank, you can try adding air. This will only work temporarily, but it will let you shower tonight and do some study and shopping. If there is too much air, air will burp from faucets. If there is too little, the cycle time will be way short.

Your well guy can replace these pretty quickly. Costs more, but you have working water. Think of all of the $30/month water bills you have not been paying, an look at well expenses as if you had been putting $30 per month into a jar, and you are pulling money from that jar.

Or if you are DIY, that works too.
 

Guy Gould

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With the water pressure zero, put in 38 PSI with a compressor. If it holds we will be surprised, but check anyway.

If the pressure does not hold, the tank is bad. It happens. Get a new one.

As a work-around for the failed tank, you can try adding air. This will only work temporarily, but it will let you shower tonight and do some study and shopping. If there is too much air, air will burp from faucets. If there is too little, the cycle time will be way short.

I'll give it a shot and let you know what happens.
 

Valveman

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If that big tank is only 4 years old and the bladder is already bad, your pump must be cycling on and off too much, which is what breaks the bladder. I would use something to stop the cycling like a Cycle Stop Valve, and you would only need a little 4.5 gallon size tank. Then the pump would not cycle, everything will last longer, and you would have better pressure in the house.
 

Guy Gould

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Having determined that the tank is bad, I am going to have to replace it. I have decided to replace it with a 4.5 gallon size tank with a cycle stop valve. It seems more economic all the way around.
 
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Guy Gould

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This is how I have set up the the expansion tank. Take a look. When I turn the switch on at the pole, it will run nicely for about 10 seconds and then start short cycling again. Does anyone have any idea what could be wrong? I have had suggestions that the air pressure is too low in the expansion tank.
 

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Reach4

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Okay. I'll change it around. Anything else?
That will have a huge effect.

With a submersible pump, it is usually better to not have a check valve up top. The check valve at the pump should do the job. You might be able to remove the innards of that check valve, and nothing else.

A pressure switch should normally be connected close to the pressure tank. If you have any bad effects, you can move the pressure switch. You can tee the pressure switch at the gauge if you don't have a tank tee with an available port already.
 

Guy Gould

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So, you're saying that there is a check valve underground and that I don't need the one on top, is that correct? Is moving the pressure switch absolutely necessary? That's a bit more involved. Additionally, when I initially turn the power on, the air pressure at the tank is 40. The pressure builds up to 100 before it short cycles.
 
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Craigpump

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You've got a few things going on...

1) dissimilar metals, you never want to combine brass and galvanized
2) you don't want your pressure switch on a galvanized nipple, galvanized corrodes on the inside and can cause the switch to not work correctly
3) the pressure switch is really too far from the tank especially with a small tank
4) I would put the pressure switch between the tank and check valve OR take the guts out of the check valve and just use it as a coupling
5) you want the tank precharge pressure to be a few pounds less than cut in pressure
6) I've been installing tanks for 30 yrs with check valves on the tank T with no issues. Sometimes real world experience trumps what's been read online
 

Guy Gould

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You've got a few things going on...

1) dissimilar metals, you never want to combine brass and galvanized
2) you don't want your pressure switch on a galvanized nipple, galvanized corrodes on the inside and can cause the switch to not work correctly
3) the pressure switch is really too far from the tank especially with a small tank
4) I would put the pressure switch between the tank and check valve OR take the guts out of the check valve and just use it as a coupling
5) you want the tank precharge pressure to be a few pounds less than cut in pressure
6) I've been installing tanks for 30 yrs with check valves on the tank T with no issues. Sometimes real world experience trumps what's been read online
You're right about the real world experience. But I'm a broke veteran on a fixed income and people don't work for free. Plumbers are still people, right? I appreciate the information that you have shared, though. I really do.
 

Craigpump

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You're right about the real world experience. But I'm a broke veteran on a fixed income and people don't work for free. Plumbers are still people, right? I appreciate the information that you have shared, though. I really do.


Thank you for your service and your families sacrifice.

If I was closer it would be my pleasure to fix it, no charge
 

Guy Gould

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I listened to what you said. I have changed things around. I'm going to try it later tonight once things set up. My family appreciates you and your family's support and gesture of kindness. I would still be serving if I could.
 

Texas Wellman

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I wonder if there's a bleeder system in the well? I didn't see a snifter valve on the check but the water had to be leaking somewhere.
 
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