Black pipe surface rust

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by DIYorBust, Apr 8, 2021.

  1. DIYorBust

    DIYorBust Active Member

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    I have a gas pipe at a property in nyc that was just recently installed. Some of the fittings are already starting to show surface rust. I've heard in nyc you are not supposed to paint low pressure Gas lines. Is there a finish other than paint that can be used to prevent rust? Thanks!

    DIY
     
  2. breplum

    breplum Member

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    I presume you are talking about black pipe. Interior is the only place black pipe is allowed by UPC.
    There is no reason in the world you can't paint steel pipe.
    But black pipe in interior spaces may develop minor surface rust, and will never actually rust out over hundreds of years.
     
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  4. DIYorBust

    DIYorBust Active Member

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    The pipe is in an interior location, but nyc now requires periodic inspections of gas lines that among other things, consider the amount of rust on the black pipe. The code also is often interpreted to say that low pressure gas lines should not be painted. What it actually says is that high pressure gas lines must be painted, but this is often suggested to mean the low pressure lines should not be painted. But I was thinking maybe something like tool black might do the job, or some greasy varnish like black pipe comes with typically.
     
  5. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

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    The problem with painting gas piping means if you ever have a leak of any type the test pressure will be as follows

    NYC Fuel Gas Code: Gas Pipe Test Requirements, per FGC section 406 ... System should have 5 PSI gauge with 3 PSI test for low pressure distribution systems ... (fire stopping for other penetrations); Painted Gas Piping: 90 PSI test required ..<<<<<


    Chapter 4: Gas Piping Installations, NYC Fuel Gas Code 2014 ...
    https://up.codes › viewer › new_york_city › gas-piping...

    401.5 Identification All piping installed in new construction and all new piping installed in existing buildings, whether or not the piping is intended to be enclosed when construction is completed, shall be identified by a yellow label marked "Gas" in black letters.

    Yellow = Gas


     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  6. wwhitney

    wwhitney Well-Known Member

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    So is there a non-paint corrosion inhibitor that can be applied to interior gas piping in NYC without triggering the 90 PSI test requirement?

    Cheers, Wayne
     
  7. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

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    NYC has gone crazy with gas regulations that will cost landlords a fortune and place more people at risk then ever before

    I worked for a co-op (https://streeteasy.com/building/river-point-towers)

    They had a company replace several risers and the mains after we located some leaks

    The company welded all the piping including 3/4" AMAZING Job

    Then they called my company to reinstall the gas stoves

    The building department considered each stove a separate work order of about $100 EACH for filing and inspection plus my labor and materials that is 412 apartments plus the gas for some other appliances

    They said "too expensive" and only they know who did the installations BUT it was not the piping replacement plumber or my company

    The only thing I would try to use to prevent the rust is to use a steel wool pad to wipe off excessive rust then apply WD 40 NOT by the threads.

    NYC has a list of master plumbers, engineers, Architects, Master electricians, and fire suppression piping contractors who had their license(S) revoked
     
  8. DIYorBust

    DIYorBust Active Member

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    Thanks sylvan. What about something like bitumastic, do you that would be acceptable?
     
  9. Jeff H Young

    Jeff H Young In the Trades

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    you can't have rusty pipe but you cant protect it either. We can just repipe it every year sounds good to me a plumber will never be out of work in NYC. what ever creates the most work, or better yet graft for officials is a good thing
     
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  10. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

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    The only time I ever use coal tar enamel was to protect water or gas mains that either the DEP or Con Ed gave a contract to protect underground piping along with dielectric oil lines (Power cables encased in a steel pipe)

    Outdoors I use galvanized piping although the utilities have a problem with it.

    In the plumbing code, it is allowable but you have to educate the inspector and have a copy of the code to show them

    The problem with painting is the test pressure is 90 PSI instead of 3 PSI which should hold under normal conditions but if Permatex was used it becomes brittle over the years and has hir line cracks which may leak under the extreme pressure
     
  11. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

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    How can you say "rust out over 100 years"?

    Many basements are very damp and THINK about the "FREE AIR" for combustion

    Ever see a gas piping leading to a gas drier?

    Did you ever notice how moist the ambient air is around the drier?

    Ever see the phenomenon of water dripping under a water heater?

    That sir is "moisture" and can cause the flue and other ferrous metal to rust in much less than 100 years

    If there is outside air being drawn in during a rain or snow storm don't you think possibly there will increase the moisture content when an appliance such as a boiler is pulling the air in a warm room


    Yes the piping can be color-coded painted BUT the drawback is in case there is any type of leak the system needs a 90 PSI test performed on a low-pressure gas supply

    LOOK CAREFULLY at this "PAINTED METER" I can assure you this meter is less than 20 YEARS old when I was called to repipe the 2 family home

    Before giving advice about "gas" make sure your right or your can be held liable for inept advice

    This is why my employees had to get a journeyman card and then take an 18 hour gas certification classes





     

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  12. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

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    Notice these meters and Blck UNPAINTED piping we installed
     

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  13. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

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    Actually, We CAN PAINT rusty cast iron AFTER it has passed an integrity test when first installed.

    The only reason gas piping has so many restrictions is gas can explode and for the same reasons I do boiler inspections on a yearly schedule

    Considering the population of NYC Gas explosions/ boiler explosions,crane accidents cannot be taken lightly

    With a July 2015 population of 8,550,405, New York is the most populous city in the United States, more than twice the size of the second largest city, Los Angeles. About 1 in every 38 people living in the United States resides in New York City.

    Think how many plumbers, home centers, DIY install water heaters and never go back to test the T&P or think of all the 1 and 2 family homes that never have a yearly boiler inspection

    One small gas leak or failed water heater in a very populated area is why the codes are more stringent and the LMP m license is only allowed to be 1,250

     
  14. Jeff H Young

    Jeff H Young In the Trades

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    ny 18 million la 12 never been to ny but must be like 5 times more dencely populated. but if that old rusty gas meter is from NYC then somethings wrong .
    Took a glance at your code it says factory applied coatings on pipe need to be tested at 90 psi didnt see mention of pipes painted in field. in section 406 but first time I everlooked at your code just interested to know why such a test , Guess they figure a LMP might use spackle or jb weld over a hole and then just paint over it .
    totaly agree Sylvan piping inside a building can still rust heck yea it can no 100 year guaranty on black pipe in a damp basement
     
  15. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

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    That corroded meter was one of two.

    It was in a basement and the owner c called my office saying "I think I smell gas"

    The funny this is the meters did not leak but the piping nearby was leaking

    I did weld steam piping but not gas piping once it was leaking

    When I heard of a gas explosion on the news and heard I had two guys working on this same black I panicked.


    Thankful;l;y they were one block away when it happened

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/gas-explo...multiple-injured-critically/story?id=75981080
     
  16. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

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  17. Jeff H Young

    Jeff H Young In the Trades

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    That rusted out gas meter suggests an inept and corrupt system in NYC. In the most civilized city of the world? Something is broken!
     
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  18. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

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    Cant fight city hall WORST mayor and governor in history of NY
     
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  19. DIYorBust

    DIYorBust Active Member

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    I think rather than constant insections, they should just specify galvanized or stainless piping if that's what they want.

    The inspections only apply to visible lines so the problem can be solved by sheetrocking over them, but I actually want to prevent my brand new, licensed plumber installed and city inspected gas lines not to rust out.

    To be fair, I've never heard of an explosion due to a rust gas line. Maybe sylvan has, but I think you'd smell gas long before that happened. I suppose a sudden failure could occur under the right circumstances.
     
  20. Jeff H Young

    Jeff H Young In the Trades

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    Not supporting nor denouncing your system some of it sounds like overkill and every system is flawed..... but people are really stupid and oderant in the gas supply no doubt prevents many serious events but cant save everyone . I belive gas leaks can lead to fire and death easily without anyone smelling it. we had a pretty bad event PG and e San Bruno CA few years ago I think it killed a few damaged Im guessing 50 homes.
     
  21. DIYorBust

    DIYorBust Active Member

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    I hear that, and agree gas leaks are dangerous. I don't know how likely gas pipes are to rust through and leak, but there's pipes in service here that are 100 years old, so perhaps they will. Gas lines are leaking all over the grid, and its common to walk down the sidewalk in NYC and smell gas.

    In this case though the pipes are all brand new. I'm thinking maybe I hit the fittings with the wire wheel to clean them up, then slather marine lithium grease on them. I think the grease should last a pretty long time. I don't want to have to regrease as I know I'll never get around to that. Do you think this would be safe?
     
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